Metamusic, the Second Life group I set up recently to discuss the challenges of in world audio in virtual worlds had its first meeting on saturday. It was really exciting and a huge range of topics were covered. In this initial meeting we tried to lay out all the main broad issues that need more detailed discussion. These came down to :

1. Uploaded 10s in world audio
2. Parcel streamed audio
3. Voice

These three areas cover a huge range of possibilties in themselves, so the discussion was fast and lively. Prospero Linden also turned up and offered some great technical insights. We spoke for about two hours, then some of us went over to No Freenotes area and played on some of Robbie Dingo’s drums !

Kronos Kirkorian, the brilliant machinimist, also kindly captured the event photographically HERE including the great photo above.

Here is the complete transcript of the meeting :

[2007/10/06 14:11] Dizzy Banjo: ok.. so the idea of this meeting and group was to investigate and discuss the possibilties of in world audio..
[2007/10/06 14:12] Dizzy Banjo: specifically to discuss things like :
[2007/10/06 14:12] Dizzy Banjo: Uploaded Audio : – The 10s limit – how to deal with it – how to work creatively with it – LSL audio scripting commands – playing / preloading – best implementation.. what controls we would like to see introduced – quality and compression of inworld audio – how to optimise – linking uploaded audio to inworld events
[2007/10/06 14:12] Dizzy Banjo: Streaming Audio : – techniques for multiple streams over single parcels – streaming media directly to avatars – vHud etc – techniques for controlling this delivery – html on prims
[2007/10/06 14:13] Dizzy Banjo: and Voice Streaming : – using voice for alternative purposes – quality / bitrate issues – voice in objects
[2007/10/06 14:13] Dizzy Banjo: some other members of the group have asked questions about :
[2007/10/06 14:13] Dizzy Banjo: it may also be important to know how the “average user” perceives sound in Second Life. What are their expectations, what’s their opinion on the current state. We as music and sound pro’s naturally have much higher demands and I think it’s important to find out how the rest of the SL citizenship thinks about sound
[2007/10/06 14:14] Da5id Zsigmond: Very little probably.
[2007/10/06 14:14] Dizzy Banjo: Support for multi-channel sound and maybe even just an option to host sound files on a server outside of SL but have the audio be played by an in-world object
[2007/10/06 14:14] BlueWall Slade: that’s a good idea
[2007/10/06 14:14] Dizzy Banjo: and more user interface things like : How can we extend the range of audio effects without asking the visitors to tamper with their audio preferences? For example, I would prefer to not have to ask visitors to reduce their preferences|audio|rollOffFactor
[2007/10/06 14:14] Dizzy Banjo: there is also a huge possible discussion on MIDI in SL..
[2007/10/06 14:14] Sugar Seville: current SL client limitations make it unfeasable to play more than 40 sounds on a region
[2007/10/06 14:15] Dizzy Banjo: yes
[2007/10/06 14:15] Sugar Seville: it’s a pretty significant limitation
[2007/10/06 14:15] Domchi Underwood: What’s rolloff factor BTW?
[2007/10/06 14:15] Kaiser Bogomil: that’s a pretty global issue too for www as well
[2007/10/06 14:15] Dizzy Banjo: so perhaps i thought it would be good to start with Mewsic Bings question : how does the “average user” percieve sound in SL.. and what possibilities could we see for sound in virtual worlds
[2007/10/06 14:16] Regi Vollmar: i had in mind to do a choir
[2007/10/06 14:16] Draxtor Despres: i think the average user
[2007/10/06 14:16] Regi Vollmar: and in general would be great to create bands
[2007/10/06 14:16] Draxtor Despres: is dancing at a techno club in SL
[2007/10/06 14:16] Draxtor Despres:
[2007/10/06 14:16] Joi Koi: I’m an average user and I hate the ambient audio
[2007/10/06 14:16] Dizzy Banjo: i put a number of provokative comments about “is Second Life in the silent era” in the post for this meeting.. which may or may not be true depending on your point of view.. so thats just a starting point..
[2007/10/06 14:16] Draxtor Despres: at least the German users
[2007/10/06 14:17] Joi Koi: Whose idea was it to have a grid wide rumble
[2007/10/06 14:17] Draxtor Despres: regi, my biggest interest in music in SL is also
[2007/10/06 14:17] Sugar Seville: Avatar Orchestra Metaverse is currently performing ensemble compositions wrtten specifically for LLscripted HUD instruments
[2007/10/06 14:17] Draxtor Despres: to habe bands collaborate
[2007/10/06 14:17] Draxtor Despres: in quasi real time
[2007/10/06 14:17] Draxtor Despres: and possibly record
[2007/10/06 14:17] Kaiser Bogomil: you can do that now with Ventrillo
[2007/10/06 14:17] Draxtor Despres: sort of like Rocket Network was, that was bouthg by Digidesing
[2007/10/06 14:18] Sugar Seville: http://avatarorchestra.blogspot.com/
[2007/10/06 14:18] Draxtor Despres: yes? how good is it?
[2007/10/06 14:18] Domchi Underwood: I’m also the avarage user – in the sound area at least – and I do hate the same repeating sounds all over SL.
[2007/10/06 14:18] Kaiser Bogomil: bad
[2007/10/06 14:18] Kaiser Bogomil:
[2007/10/06 14:18] Regi Vollmar: if possible would be great the possibility to separate tracks and then riassemble in post
[2007/10/06 14:18] Kaiser Bogomil: the www is really bad for synchronizing your playing
[2007/10/06 14:18] Draxtor Despres: yes!
[2007/10/06 14:18] Da5id Zsigmond: We need the ability to sync to a reference within each client.
[2007/10/06 14:18] Dizzy Banjo: yes one discussion i had over at torley lindens hour recently summed it up.. what i think we need is the audio equivalent – or much better really – of Windlight
[2007/10/06 14:18] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – if there is a protocol for that
[2007/10/06 14:19] Kaiser Bogomil: what’s windlight?
[2007/10/06 14:19] Jazz Glineux: sugar, draxtor, thats my area of interest as well – collaborative playing in sl – I hooked in an existing program called Ninjam and some groups such as VLB have been performing with that software in sync
[2007/10/06 14:19] Da5id Zsigmond: The newest viewer
[2007/10/06 14:19] Joi Koi: adda 5mb sound bank to the client and implement midi, big palet to work with
[2007/10/06 14:19] Draxtor Despres: sugar, how varied are the sounds for the HUD instruments
[2007/10/06 14:19] Dizzy Banjo: the atmospheric graphics engine coming to SL. “immenently” ( for the last 3 years )
[2007/10/06 14:19] Draxtor Despres: how large is their range? do u play live?
[2007/10/06 14:19] Domchi Underwood: Windlight is the way to the more realistic sky
[2007/10/06 14:19] Kaiser Bogomil: hmmm I like the midi idea
[2007/10/06 14:20] Sugar Seville: the HUD instruments are programmed for a specific composition
[2007/10/06 14:20] Kronos Kirkorian: windlight is what every photographer in SL is dying to have in place
[2007/10/06 14:20] Kronos Kirkorian: to finally have some real lighting control\
[2007/10/06 14:20] Sugar Seville: there aren’t a lot of sounds and the style is generealy speaking, avante-garde
[2007/10/06 14:20] Sugar Seville: Pauline Oliveros has joined them
[2007/10/06 14:21] Domchi Underwood: I like the MIDI idea as well, especially as a way to preserve bandwidth. Anyone know, any chances of MIDI?
[2007/10/06 14:21] Dizzy Banjo: ok maybe this discussion brings us on to “uploaded audio”
[2007/10/06 14:21] Sugar Seville: and has written a simple piece
[2007/10/06 14:21] Da5id Zsigmond: I haven’t talked to here in ages.
[2007/10/06 14:21] Kaiser Bogomil: uploaded audio for the soundbanks?
[2007/10/06 14:21] Draxtor Despres: MIDI i think
[2007/10/06 14:21] Draxtor Despres: is on the way
[2007/10/06 14:21] Kaiser Bogomil: k
[2007/10/06 14:21] Draxtor Despres: i interviewed Aric Linden last week
[2007/10/06 14:22] Dizzy Banjo: the limitations of the grid architecture / bandwidth in general.. limit ( according to zero linden at least ) the ability to deal with audio longer than 10s segments
[2007/10/06 14:22] Draxtor Despres: for some time
[2007/10/06 14:22] Kronos Kirkorian: I
[2007/10/06 14:22] Da5id Zsigmond: I thought it had more to do with copyright.
[2007/10/06 14:22] Draxtor Despres: and he did confirm that in a year perhpas it will be implemented
[2007/10/06 14:22] Dizzy Banjo: lol yes da5id as do many
[2007/10/06 14:22] BlueWall Slade: I started experimenting with XML-RPC, but the vendors have clogged it so bad – it’s unusable as a data transoprt for MIDI type apps
[2007/10/06 14:22] Draxtor Despres: noone knows how of course…
[2007/10/06 14:22] Dizzy Banjo: the midi discussion is quite hot atm
[2007/10/06 14:22] Dizzy Banjo: there are a number of jira’s about it
[2007/10/06 14:22] Da5id Zsigmond: it will likely be in a phtoshop format. lol
[2007/10/06 14:22] Dizzy Banjo: but its not moved anywhere
[2007/10/06 14:23] Draxtor Despres: aha
[2007/10/06 14:23] Kaiser Bogomil: you could hide midi data in a .gif file
[2007/10/06 14:23] BlueWall Slade: maybe they (LL) could setup an RPC port for musicians only?
[2007/10/06 14:23] Da5id Zsigmond: I wasn’t kidding.
[2007/10/06 14:23] Kaiser Bogomil: I know
[2007/10/06 14:23] Dizzy Banjo: it came up in an office hour a few weeks ago and i tried to agitate it basically.. signpost marv has slammed in about 10 jiras requests on it but i dont think they have had any work done on them – if Aric has said other wise id love to hear about it
[2007/10/06 14:24] Da5id Zsigmond: The problem isn’t as much the 10 second file limit as much as not being able to assemble files in sequence.
[2007/10/06 14:24] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/10/06 14:24] Da5id Zsigmond: And sync them to anything else.
[2007/10/06 14:24] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/10/06 14:25] Da5id Zsigmond: I put in a request in the Jira for a PlayFiles in Sequence command.
[2007/10/06 14:25] Da5id Zsigmond: Could use some votes.
[2007/10/06 14:25] Dizzy Banjo: yeah da5id
[2007/10/06 14:25] Regi Vollmar: a simple mixer would be great for voice
[2007/10/06 14:25] Kaiser Bogomil: yes or at least have a preload done event
[2007/10/06 14:25] Da5id Zsigmond: like that.
[2007/10/06 14:25] No Freenote: hello everyone
[2007/10/06 14:25] Dizzy Banjo: the preloading .. as far as i understand it is impossible to predict.. is that right Kaiser ?
[2007/10/06 14:25] Draxtor Despres: yes regi! i liked your choir idea!
[2007/10/06 14:25] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/10/06 14:25] Joi Koi: Hi No
[2007/10/06 14:26] Dizzy Banjo: Hi people just arriving
[2007/10/06 14:26] Dizzy Banjo: yeh well one thing that amazes me is the creativity that people can bring to working with that framework
[2007/10/06 14:26] Regi Vollmar: for the choir idea a control on tonality frosyncro could be enough
[2007/10/06 14:26] Regi Vollmar: with possibility to be in 4 categories
[2007/10/06 14:27] Regi Vollmar: for syncro
[2007/10/06 14:27] Dizzy Banjo: i was hoping to get adam ramona along today but his timezone is real difficult
[2007/10/06 14:27] Sugar Seville: yes its early sunday morning for him now
[2007/10/06 14:27] Domchi Underwood: Da5id, do you have the link to JIRA issue for PlayFiles in Sequence?
[2007/10/06 14:28] Dizzy Banjo: ok so i was thinking in specific reference to uploaded 10s audio that it would be good to try to pool peoples experiences of the best implementation of LSL audio commands somehow
[2007/10/06 14:28] Da5id Zsigmond: sorry – its in the audio section somewhere.
[2007/10/06 14:28] Da5id Zsigmond: The only thing I’ve found that works is LoopSound and LLSlave.
[2007/10/06 14:29] Kaiser Bogomil: what I’d like to see is llPlaySoundList( list sounds, float volume )
[2007/10/06 14:29] Da5id Zsigmond: precisely!!!!!!!!!

[2007/10/06 14:29] Kaiser Bogomil: & then the streaming is taken care of by the lindens
[2007/10/06 14:29] Dizzy Banjo: maybe i could set up a forum or even wiki specifically for this
[2007/10/06 14:29] WatYa Tenk: nice idea

[2007/10/06 14:29] Sugar Seville: may i suggest a facebook group?
[2007/10/06 14:29] Da5id Zsigmond: There has to be a flag available to indicate the end of one file.
[2007/10/06 14:30] Dizzy Banjo: yeah da5id…
[2007/10/06 14:30] Kaiser Bogomil: why?
[2007/10/06 14:30] Jazz Glineux: i think its a good idea dizzy to separate out interests as there have been lots of interesting topics brought up
[2007/10/06 14:30] Dizzy Banjo: yes that would be a possibility sugar .. personally i dont really use it..
[2007/10/06 14:30] Dizzy Banjo: yeah.. in this meeting i just want to zoom through all aspects of in world audio
[2007/10/06 14:30] Da5id Zsigmond: We could use seperate working groups.
[2007/10/06 14:30] Dizzy Banjo: and then maybe we can have specific discussions about each one
[2007/10/06 14:31] Dizzy Banjo: yes
[2007/10/06 14:31] Sugar Seville: facebook works well
[2007/10/06 14:31] Draxtor Despres: or we could change the topic weekly
[2007/10/06 14:31] Da5id Zsigmond: There’s so much.
[2007/10/06 14:31] Dizzy Banjo: i just thought we could do this first to get to know each other a bit and lay out the broader issues
[2007/10/06 14:31] BlueWall Slade: Ogg/Vorbis would be a better format than wav – they could me the play length longer.
[2007/10/06 14:31] Draxtor Despres: i am primarily a composer in RL and have no clue about LSL
[2007/10/06 14:31] Da5id Zsigmond: A forum would be a good way to do this you know.
[2007/10/06 14:31] Draxtor Despres: although i would like to be present when it is discussed
[2007/10/06 14:31] Dizzy Banjo: yeh i think a forum is probably the best thing
[2007/10/06 14:31] Joi Koi: http://www.wetpaint.com is good for wikis
[2007/10/06 14:32] Da5id Zsigmond: They are somewhat complicated.
[2007/10/06 14:32] Da5id Zsigmond: It limits the input.
[2007/10/06 14:32] Dizzy Banjo: i want something mega simple which everyone could use
[2007/10/06 14:32] Dizzy Banjo: ie not a jira .. lol
[2007/10/06 14:32] Kaiser Bogomil: we have a Linde present?
[2007/10/06 14:32] Da5id Zsigmond: lol
[2007/10/06 14:32] Prospero Linden: Hello all
[2007/10/06 14:32] Dizzy Banjo: hi prospero
[2007/10/06 14:32] Da5id Zsigmond: hi
[2007/10/06 14:32] Kaiser Bogomil: Hi
[2007/10/06 14:32] Leslee McCarey: Dizzy – sounds like you want basic message boards
[2007/10/06 14:32] Dizzy Banjo: glad you could make it
[2007/10/06 14:32] Draxtor Despres: if this is suppossed to be a weekly meet, then Dizzy could post on the Google caledar
[2007/10/06 14:32] WatYa Tenk: hi
[2007/10/06 14:32] Draxtor Despres: the tpoics a month in advance
[2007/10/06 14:32] Kaiser Bogomil: good idea
[2007/10/06 14:32] Dizzy Banjo: yeah ive got a calender up
[2007/10/06 14:33] Joi Koi: http://www.ning.com is easy to setup for messages etc
[2007/10/06 14:33] Dizzy Banjo: ill work out how to break up discussion into more managable bites once we discuss them a bit here today
[2007/10/06 14:33] Dizzy Banjo: great
[2007/10/06 14:33] No Freenote: why are limited to wav files?
[2007/10/06 14:33] Dizzy Banjo: ok.. so there are ALOT of issues to cover on uploaded audio.. as it is
[2007/10/06 14:33] Kaiser Bogomil: so…. why not focus now on one subject?
[2007/10/06 14:33] Dizzy Banjo: technically
[2007/10/06 14:33] Draxtor Despres: ye Kaiser!
[2007/10/06 14:34] Dizzy Banjo: but there are also audio issues
[2007/10/06 14:34] Draxtor Despres: good idea
[2007/10/06 14:34] Dizzy Banjo: like format and compression
[2007/10/06 14:34] Draxtor Despres: and at end of meeting decide on next weeks
[2007/10/06 14:34] Da5id Zsigmond: today might be a good day to just identify the different topics
[2007/10/06 14:34] Dizzy Banjo: the way i understand it is they are uploaded as wav.. but then are converted to ogg on the servers.. and the stream down to the client is actually mono ogg
[2007/10/06 14:34] Draxtor Despres: one topic of mine: musical collaboration similar to rocket network
[2007/10/06 14:34] Draxtor Despres: in SL
[2007/10/06 14:34] BlueWall Slade: ok
[2007/10/06 14:34] Draxtor Despres: is it possible/far away
[2007/10/06 14:34] Draxtor Despres: etc
[2007/10/06 14:34] Prospero Linden: I don’t actually know what the stream down from the servers is.
[2007/10/06 14:35] Prospero Linden: Presumably, one could figure that out from looking at the source code for the client…!
[2007/10/06 14:35] Dizzy Banjo: but other things seems to be happening in that process
[2007/10/06 14:35] Jazz Glineux: yes, thats my interest draxtor, and there are things going on already on that topic
[2007/10/06 14:35] Draxtor Despres: i do a lot of sessions with people far away and usually they add tracks
[2007/10/06 14:35] Da5id Zsigmond: I think we could say one topic is environmental – sounds and a 3D audio emulation that works.
[2007/10/06 14:35] Draxtor Despres: it would be fantasdtic if in SL i could have a virtual recording studio
[2007/10/06 14:35] Dizzy Banjo: audiowise.. like compression / limiting.. and very odd bitrate compresion.. lol
[2007/10/06 14:35] Prospero Linden: But, if you think about it, audio mixing happens on the server end — the audio stream you get down combines whatever sounds are up there and bases it on how far you are from them.
[2007/10/06 14:35] Regi Vollmar: is it possible to have a simple mixer?
[2007/10/06 14:36] Dizzy Banjo: yeh.. it would be good.. to get a total breakdown of the entire process
[2007/10/06 14:36] Dizzy Banjo: exactly what happens
[2007/10/06 14:36] Da5id Zsigmond: There is a basic mixer in the preferences.
[2007/10/06 14:36] Dizzy Banjo: and see if we can learn how to optimise it
[2007/10/06 14:36] Dizzy Banjo: so anyway tehre are loads of things there to discuss.. which could all have seperate threads on the forum
[2007/10/06 14:37] Regi Vollmar: midi …
[2007/10/06 14:37] Dizzy Banjo: maybe we should move along to the next “category” streaming audio
[2007/10/06 14:37] Da5id Zsigmond: A bit of a problem with all things is that with the preferences its possible for two avs to have completely different audio experiences.
[2007/10/06 14:37] Da5id Zsigmond: There is no reference.
[2007/10/06 14:37] Dizzy Banjo: yeh that is an issue

[2007/10/06 14:38] Dizzy Banjo: there have been alot of discussions recently about the possibility of html on a prim getting nearer.. ( by christmas ?! )
[2007/10/06 14:38] No Freenote: as far as mixer…. why can’t we have a live ‘aux’ line like we do for mic?
[2007/10/06 14:38] BlueWall Slade: do we need “poseballs” for audio? To automate the settings?
[2007/10/06 14:38] Dizzy Banjo: Tao did a great summary of it on his blog
[2007/10/06 14:38] WatYa Tenk: Hi Bitsy
[2007/10/06 14:38] Dizzy Banjo: lol thats a interesting idea

[2007/10/06 14:38] Bitsy Tomsen: Oops
[2007/10/06 14:38] Bitsy Tomsen: Excuse me.
[2007/10/06 14:38] Dizzy Banjo: http://taotakashi.wordpress.com/2007/10/02/html-on-a-prim-is-getting-ready-for-prime-time/
[2007/10/06 14:39] Dizzy Banjo: there have also been a number of really interesting products come out which utilise multiple streams on a single parcel recently.. notibly the vHud
[2007/10/06 14:39] Regi Vollmar: saving music played in SL keeping separated the tracks
[2007/10/06 14:39] Regi Vollmar: would be great
[2007/10/06 14:40] Draxtor Despres: the guys from Cruxy also said, they have avatar based playing figured out with their ipod like player for SL
[2007/10/06 14:40] Draxtor Despres: regi, that would be fantastic!
[2007/10/06 14:40] Dizzy Banjo: just thinking.. how / if these technologies could be used to create soundtracks ..
[2007/10/06 14:41] BlueWall Slade: the cruxy thing need to happen asap
[2007/10/06 14:41] Prospero Linden needs to go AFK, will be back in ca. 5 miutes
[2007/10/06 14:41] Da5id Zsigmond: what is the cruxy thing??
[2007/10/06 14:41] BlueWall Slade: the media player
[2007/10/06 14:41] Draxtor Despres: cruxy is a company in NY, they have a great music promo device
[2007/10/06 14:41] Da5id Zsigmond: ah
[2007/10/06 14:41] Draxtor Despres: i did a report on it
[2007/10/06 14:41] Draxtor Despres: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrlSek4O8g4
[2007/10/06 14:41] BlueWall Slade: right now, it’s coupled to property murls
[2007/10/06 14:42] Dizzy Banjo: yes cruxy is really interesting to
[2007/10/06 14:42] Draxtor Despres: they presented suzanne vega
[2007/10/06 14:42] Regi Vollmar: maybe we can give him a log after
[2007/10/06 14:42] Dizzy Banjo: all these technologies are interesting .. in that they deliver music and audio in long unrestricted streams.. but arent really delivering it in a persistent truly “in world” way
[2007/10/06 14:42] BlueWall Slade: if it can be de-coupled, so an avatar uses is as a personal player – it would be awesome for musicians to promote music
[2007/10/06 14:43] GEOELDER Clary: I have a bit of a problem in first life I need to take care of. See you again soon.
[2007/10/06 14:43] Da5id Zsigmond: streaming does seem to be outside what we’re really about here isn’t it?
[2007/10/06 14:43] Draxtor Despres: bluewall, thats wha the cruxy told they are coming out with now
[2007/10/06 14:43] Dizzy Banjo: yeah i think its a superb tool for musicians
[2007/10/06 14:43] Dizzy Banjo: thanks for coming along geo
[2007/10/06 14:43] BlueWall Slade: yahoo
[2007/10/06 14:44] No Freenote: sounds like many of these issues would be solved with html
[2007/10/06 14:44] Dizzy Banjo: yes
[2007/10/06 14:44] BlueWall Slade: hope it is open though .
[2007/10/06 14:44] Dizzy Banjo: id urge everyone to go along and put lots of musical use cases on the wiki page for html on a prim here :
[2007/10/06 14:44] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 14:45] Regi Vollmar: has someone created a sound world, here?
[2007/10/06 14:45] Dizzy Banjo: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Media_on_a_parcel

[2007/10/06 14:45] Dizzy Banjo: hey leslee u have ur mic open btw.. lol
[2007/10/06 14:46] Dizzy Banjo: anyway.. seeing as there seems to be little or no interest in this aspect of the discussion.. lol.. ill move along
[2007/10/06 14:46] Kaiser Bogomil: no – I’m interested in HTML on a prim!
[2007/10/06 14:46] BlueWall Slade: yes
[2007/10/06 14:46] Dizzy Banjo: ok
[2007/10/06 14:46] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 14:46] Dizzy Banjo: sorry
[2007/10/06 14:46] BlueWall Slade: that’s important too
[2007/10/06 14:46] Kaiser Bogomil: np – I think its a great idea!!
[2007/10/06 14:46] Dizzy Banjo: yeh i think its very importatnt
[2007/10/06 14:47] Regi Vollmar: i don’t understand this html thing
[2007/10/06 14:47] Regi Vollmar: open a page?
[2007/10/06 14:47] Da5id Zsigmond: me as well – ??
[2007/10/06 14:47] Dizzy Banjo: from that wiki.. it still seems quite nebulous though
[2007/10/06 14:47] Kaiser Bogomil: no
[2007/10/06 14:47] Dizzy Banjo: exactly how it would work
[2007/10/06 14:47] Da5id Zsigmond: What is its use in an application.
[2007/10/06 14:47] Kaiser Bogomil: you use the page you’d normally see in your html viewer as a texture on your prim
[2007/10/06 14:47] Kaiser Bogomil: but…
[2007/10/06 14:47] Dizzy Banjo: have a look down at the use cases da5id.. it could be very poserful
[2007/10/06 14:47] Da5id Zsigmond: Could multiple musicians bring their individual streams to a single location.
[2007/10/06 14:47] Dizzy Banjo: powerful even
[2007/10/06 14:48] Kaiser Bogomil: you could use it for lots of other players!!
[2007/10/06 14:48] Draxtor Despres: guys, i gotta run ..my son woke up thanks for a great start of dicussion! hope this is a regular thing.much more personal than a mailing list
[2007/10/06 14:48] Kaiser Bogomil: k – adios Draxtor
[2007/10/06 14:48] Draxtor Despres: dizzy hope u post the transscript
[2007/10/06 14:48] Dizzy Banjo: yes definitely, thanks for coming drax
[2007/10/06 14:48] Joi Koi: it depends on implementation, is it local…do I see, hear what you do or is it a solitary experience?
[2007/10/06 14:48] Regi Vollmar: bye draxtor
[2007/10/06 14:48] Dizzy Banjo: defo
[2007/10/06 14:48] Dizzy Banjo: thats unclear joi
[2007/10/06 14:48] Dizzy Banjo: it could be either
[2007/10/06 14:48] Dizzy Banjo: also it wont be positional i dont think
[2007/10/06 14:49] Leslee McCarey: Joi – from the wiki it stages – it’s local to a parcel, initially single feed, later multiple, both asynchronous to view and syncrhonous to multiple viewers
[2007/10/06 14:49] Kaiser Bogomil: I don’t see html alone being good for collaborative playing or mixing without some “help”
[2007/10/06 14:49] Dizzy Banjo: in the same way an uploaded sound or voice is
[2007/10/06 14:49] Joi Koi: I vote universal…….except when I want it local
[2007/10/06 14:49] Da5id Zsigmond: There will always be the indeterminate delay problem.
[2007/10/06 14:49] Kaiser Bogomil: yep
[2007/10/06 14:50] Dizzy Banjo: i dont think its going to be a solution for sychronous in world positional audio projects
[2007/10/06 14:50] Da5id Zsigmond: If you could send something in and say sync to this you could collaborate in a tempo
[2007/10/06 14:50] Regi Vollmar: so will have YOUTUBE in sl ))
[2007/10/06 14:50] WatYa Tenk: thanks all
[2007/10/06 14:50] Dizzy Banjo: but it could be very interesting
[2007/10/06 14:50] Leslee McCarey: right Regi – and more important, Flash
[2007/10/06 14:50] WatYa Tenk: interesting ideas
[2007/10/06 14:50] Dizzy Banjo: thanks watya
[2007/10/06 14:50] Dizzy Banjo: btw if anyone needs to.. please join the METAMUSIC group to keep up to date with this discussion
[2007/10/06 14:50] Regi Vollmar: but the lag will be the product of 2 lag
[2007/10/06 14:51] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – it would be good to go around the sl server web
[2007/10/06 14:51] Da5id Zsigmond: It would have to be assembled – not sure if in client or server.
[2007/10/06 14:51] BlueWall Slade: it would most likely be client-side
[2007/10/06 14:51] Jazz Glineux: da5id, yes, multiple streams can be brought into sl, there are programs to do that in a few different ways
[2007/10/06 14:51] Dizzy Banjo: lol.. a multitude of issues coming up here
[2007/10/06 14:51] Da5id Zsigmond: Could be a midi time code application.
[2007/10/06 14:52] Dizzy Banjo: what i wonder is.. ok i have 5 prim surfaces with media on them.. do i hear them all positionally with rolloff ? and can they be synced
[2007/10/06 14:52] BlueWall Slade: Da5id: MIDI over RPC would be best, it RPC worked
[2007/10/06 14:53] Da5id Zsigmond: lol
[2007/10/06 14:53] Kaiser Bogomil: hehe
[2007/10/06 14:53] Da5id Zsigmond: there’s always a catch
[2007/10/06 14:53] BlueWall Slade: it is clogged with vendor traffic atm
[2007/10/06 14:53] Regi Vollmar: would be interesting the stereo effect )) 39.1
[2007/10/06 14:53] BlueWall Slade: if: LL would open a separate channel for music *ONL* apps, it would go, i think
[2007/10/06 14:54] Da5id Zsigmond: hmmm
[2007/10/06 14:54] Dizzy Banjo: thanks kronos .. cya
[2007/10/06 14:54] Kaiser Bogomil: yes & go beyond the DSL limit
[2007/10/06 14:54] Kronos Kirkorian: lol
[2007/10/06 14:54] Kronos Kirkorian: good meet
[2007/10/06 14:54] Kronos Kirkorian: bye
[2007/10/06 14:54] Da5id Zsigmond: by
[2007/10/06 14:55] Kaiser Bogomil: bye Kronos
[2007/10/06 14:55] Dizzy Banjo: ok.. well shall we move on to the next category.. as we should just skim through them briefly today i think
[2007/10/06 14:55] No Freenote: are there currently online midi synching programs for this type of collaborative work?
[2007/10/06 14:55] Kaiser Bogomil: k
[2007/10/06 14:56] Kaiser Bogomil: ya know – if there isn’t one – it would be a great product!
[2007/10/06 14:56] Dizzy Banjo: the next thing i can think of.. is using voice for alternate means
[2007/10/06 14:56] Dizzy Banjo: there are No
[2007/10/06 14:56] Da5id Zsigmond: Would not be that complicated really.
[2007/10/06 14:56] Dizzy Banjo: i cant remember the name of it now
[2007/10/06 14:56] Dizzy Banjo: but there is one
[2007/10/06 14:56] Kaiser Bogomil: I know
[2007/10/06 14:56] Dizzy Banjo: ill find it in a min
[2007/10/06 14:56] Jazz Glineux: yes, there are midi synching programs, e-jamming is a company that has one
[2007/10/06 14:56] BlueWall Slade: i think there are network midi transports arround
[2007/10/06 14:56] Kaiser Bogomil: makes sense
[2007/10/06 14:57] Dizzy Banjo: yeh ejamming does one.. and even an audio one
[2007/10/06 14:57] Dizzy Banjo: which is laggy as hell lol
[2007/10/06 14:57] Joi Koi: http://www.musigy.com/about
[2007/10/06 14:57] Jazz Glineux: yes, they added that recently but there are distance limitations
[2007/10/06 14:57] Dizzy Banjo: its like multitrack recording on a SBlive
[2007/10/06 14:58] BlueWall Slade: the collab. stuff would most likely take place outside SL…
[2007/10/06 14:58] Dizzy Banjo: yeh i think things like Ninjam are great for that
[2007/10/06 14:58] Jazz Glineux: yes, thats where the existing stuff is now
[2007/10/06 14:58] BlueWall Slade: but woud come together near the end for in-world presentation
[2007/10/06 14:59] BlueWall Slade: in many cases – the “last mile” is where mosto of the challenges lie
[2007/10/06 14:59] Dizzy Banjo: i think that combined with the existing stream solutions are all very exciting technologies.. but in many ways they are working quite well as it is.. i kind of want to keep this group discussions centered on “hard stuff” which we cant work out how to do.. so its of maximum benefit to everyone.. and specifically on actual in world solutions where possible
[2007/10/06 14:59] Regi Vollmar: how could function the live midi thing? Should SL take midi data from a port?
[2007/10/06 15:00] BlueWall Slade: we should be able to script MIDI apps in LSL to accept XML-RPC data
[2007/10/06 15:00] Kaiser Bogomil: that would work
[2007/10/06 15:00] Dizzy Banjo: SL MIDI is just fascinating .. i think we definitely need lost of session on it.. lol

[2007/10/06 15:00] Joi Koi: Anyone use the voice chat for music or soundscapes?
[2007/10/06 15:00] Da5id Zsigmond: I would say you start with a MidiMaster that gives you either elapsed time or where you are in a ’song’
[2007/10/06 15:00] Dizzy Banjo: ok yeah lets move on to that joi
[2007/10/06 15:01] Kaiser Bogomil: it would be fantastic to do programatic music!
[2007/10/06 15:01] Dizzy Banjo: yeah.. lol
[2007/10/06 15:01] Prospero Linden: Side question here : are any of you folks present on the sldev mailing list?
[2007/10/06 15:01] Dizzy Banjo: i am yes
[2007/10/06 15:01] Kaiser Bogomil: I’m not
[2007/10/06 15:01] Dizzy Banjo: im going to post all this on there
[2007/10/06 15:01] Da5id Zsigmond: It’s actually in place technology for musical collaboration.
[2007/10/06 15:01] No Freenote: i have. yes
[2007/10/06 15:01] Prospero Linden: OK
[2007/10/06 15:01] Regi Vollmar: i’m not
[2007/10/06 15:01] Dizzy Banjo: btw .. just for your information this entire conversation log will be posted on my blog
[2007/10/06 15:02] Dizzy Banjo: http://dizzybanjo.wordpress.com
[2007/10/06 15:02] Prospero Linden: A lot of the architecture discussion goes on there; it tends to be mostly techie, but it’s probably a good place to get people thinking about these things. End of interjection
[2007/10/06 15:02] No Freenote: but dizzy, i’m shy…
[2007/10/06 15:02] BlueWall Slade: is that for the viewer developers?
[2007/10/06 15:02] Dizzy Banjo: i have to say that so people dont get upset
[2007/10/06 15:02] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 15:02] Regi Vollmar: prospero, i had an idea for syncro for choirs: using tone to do that
[2007/10/06 15:02] Leslee McCarey goes on record as ok with transcript posting from these
[2007/10/06 15:03] Regi Vollmar: all we need is to be in 4 categories: alto, soprano, tenor, basss
[2007/10/06 15:03] Dizzy Banjo: i think the dev list is plagued with communication issues though unfortunately.. its very hard to keep a track of discussions on there.. and the topic is just too big
[2007/10/06 15:03] Joi Koi: because of the spacial ability of the voice client it would be great for live audio collaboration
[2007/10/06 15:03] Da5id Zsigmond: why the forum approach would be so good.
[2007/10/06 15:03] Dizzy Banjo: yeh
[2007/10/06 15:03] BlueWall Slade: threaded mail client and folder processing:: procmail?
[2007/10/06 15:03] Kaiser Bogomil:
[2007/10/06 15:03] Prospero Linden: Yes. There *is* a lot of traffic there. There are weekly meetings that try to come address topics that are going into a spin on the sldev mailing list.
[2007/10/06 15:03] Prospero Linden: in-world.
[2007/10/06 15:04] BlueWall Slade: sound cool – I’ll look into it
[2007/10/06 15:04] Prospero Linden: In any event, at the moment that’s the #1 avenue — in addition to office hours of some Lindens, such as Zero — where community is engaging with Linden about architecture issues and so forth.
[2007/10/06 15:04] Dizzy Banjo: part of the reason for this group was to try to create a sub discussion really which could delve deep into the inworld audio issues.. and report that back into the dev list
[2007/10/06 15:04] Prospero Linden is not a developer himself.
[2007/10/06 15:04] Prospero Linden: Dizzy, yes, that’s a good idea.
[2007/10/06 15:04] Prospero Linden: I just wanted to make sure the report back would happen
[2007/10/06 15:05] Dizzy Banjo: yeah definitely.. also slim warrior has set up a specific live music discussion board
[2007/10/06 15:05] Dizzy Banjo: which is also feeding back into it
[2007/10/06 15:05] Dizzy Banjo: its just such a huge area really
[2007/10/06 15:05] Dizzy Banjo: anyway Joi.. yes
[2007/10/06 15:05] Dizzy Banjo: the voice thing
[2007/10/06 15:05] BlueWall Slade: exciting stuff
[2007/10/06 15:06] Dizzy Banjo: ive been experimenting with voice since the beta days of it.. and i think its fascinating
[2007/10/06 15:06] Leslee McCarey: is SL voice adequate for any kind of music fidelity?
[2007/10/06 15:06] Da5id Zsigmond: it works.
[2007/10/06 15:06] Kaiser Bogomil: its not bad
[2007/10/06 15:06] Dizzy Banjo: well it can be…
[2007/10/06 15:06] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 15:06] Leslee McCarey: LOL – not thru my headset!
[2007/10/06 15:06] Dizzy Banjo: i dont think its ever going to be a collaborative tool
[2007/10/06 15:06] Jazz Glineux: do u have any idea of the voice bandwidth dizzy?
[2007/10/06 15:06] Dizzy Banjo: nope
[2007/10/06 15:06] Joi Koi: Outside SL anyone thinking of developing their own VW I met this guy over on http://www.virtualworldsconnect.com – Keith Weiner His company does something similar to Vivox http://www.dw.com/products_dwp.php looks interesting
[2007/10/06 15:06] Dizzy Banjo: i think it fluctuates
[2007/10/06 15:07] Dizzy Banjo: cool
[2007/10/06 15:07] Domchi Underwood: Robot agent using tweaked open-source client with voice could be interesting.
[2007/10/06 15:07] BlueWall Slade: hehe: stand in a sandbox and play guitar through voice channel for tips
[2007/10/06 15:07] Dizzy Banjo: ive been doing alot of experiments with voice recently
[2007/10/06 15:07] Dizzy Banjo: ill show you all when its done
[2007/10/06 15:07] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 15:08] Joi Koi: Great dizzy …i’m excited
[2007/10/06 15:08] Dizzy Banjo: but its not really a solution for persistent in world audio
[2007/10/06 15:08] BlueWall Slade: cool
[2007/10/06 15:08] Da5id Zsigmond: it would be good to do some experiments.
[2007/10/06 15:08] Jazz Glineux: i wonder also how much delay between sound origination and when the user hears it, shoutcast streams can get close to a minute, and usually seem more than 20secs, depending on lots of things
[2007/10/06 15:08] Dizzy Banjo: however it does let you stream multiple point sources in world .. and obviously the stream is unlimited in length
[2007/10/06 15:09] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – shout cast is pretty lame that way
[2007/10/06 15:09] No Freenote: sony and virgin should be doing this work…. they’re just gonna steal it and sell justin once it’s all figured out….
[2007/10/06 15:09] Dizzy Banjo: the bitrate issue is a problem though
[2007/10/06 15:09] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 15:09] Leslee McCarey: seems voice delay is maybe 3-5 seconds based on feedback via mics used w/live computer speakers
[2007/10/06 15:09] BlueWall Slade: lol avatar density is too low for the labels
[2007/10/06 15:09] Jazz Glineux: well, as far as i know all the streaming music has that inherent problem because of the need for internet buffering, but havent tried others
[2007/10/06 15:09] Da5id Zsigmond: Well Skype works so we should be able to get the delay down shouldn’t we?
[2007/10/06 15:09] BlueWall Slade: their marketing is not smart enough
[2007/10/06 15:09] Dizzy Banjo: ive been talking to vivox guys.. and various lindens about the possibility of putting voice in objects
[2007/10/06 15:10] Dizzy Banjo: which seems theoretically possible
[2007/10/06 15:10] Da5id Zsigmond: hmm that’s interesting.
[2007/10/06 15:10] Regi Vollmar: having an sl band the important thing is that the people in the band are hearing in syncro; it’s possible to think to reproduce their sound with a late for all the rest of the world (gaining syncro)
[2007/10/06 15:10] Leslee McCarey: voice in objects? say more…
[2007/10/06 15:10] Dizzy Banjo: of course why they would want to do this and who would pay for all the extra servers and bandwidth is another matter
[2007/10/06 15:10] Dizzy Banjo:
[2007/10/06 15:10] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 15:10] Dizzy Banjo: but it could be interesting
[2007/10/06 15:11] No Freenote: in order to broadcast simultaneously in differnet parcels / diff sims?
[2007/10/06 15:11] Dizzy Banjo: i think voice has alot of potential.. imagine if you could link voice streams to files instead of live mic streams
[2007/10/06 15:11] Joi Koi: So I can hear my Bassist on my left and my Lead on my Right and the drummerr……..
[2007/10/06 15:11] Kaiser Bogomil: for voice logs?
[2007/10/06 15:11] Dizzy Banjo: well this is another aspect of it thats fascinating
[2007/10/06 15:12] Dizzy Banjo: i did a talk a while ago now at a metaversed event about voice.. where vinny from vivox was discussing the possibilitiy of a mutli stream recording app in the client
[2007/10/06 15:12] Prospero Linden: Synchronization over the Internet will always be challenging just because of latency.
[2007/10/06 15:12] Da5id Zsigmond: The nice thing about voice right now is you can immediately put some audio into second life.
[2007/10/06 15:12] Prospero Linden: If you calculate the light travel time from one side of the Earth to the other, going directly through the center, the round-trip is 40ms
[2007/10/06 15:12] Da5id Zsigmond: Not waiting for a sound file to load and then begin playing.
[2007/10/06 15:12] Colpa LeMay: does the open source client include voice chat?
[2007/10/06 15:13] Kaiser Bogomil: yep
[2007/10/06 15:13] Kaiser Bogomil: difficult to sync the world up
[2007/10/06 15:13] Prospero Linden: That’s the absolute minimum latency could get between, say, the USA and Austrailia…. and in practice it won’t be that low, because (a) we won’t drill through the center of the earth to build a light pipe, and (b) switching hardware all has its latency as well.
[2007/10/06 15:13] No Freenote: who can we email about speeding that up prospero?
[2007/10/06 15:13] Da5id Zsigmond: It’s a reference problem is all.
[2007/10/06 15:13] Dizzy Banjo: lmao prospero
[2007/10/06 15:13] Prospero Linden: No Freenote : if you have his e-mail address, you’re doing better than me!
[2007/10/06 15:13] Dizzy Banjo thinks we should drill a hole just to get that few ms
[2007/10/06 15:14] No Freenote: no, shit, i got muted….
[2007/10/06 15:14] Jazz Glineux: would be nice to change the laws of physics prospero, wish rl was more like sl, but do u know the minimum latency thats perceptible?
[2007/10/06 15:14] Colpa LeMay: Yes, you could listen to your drummer, but then he couldnt listen to you–its already too late
[2007/10/06 15:14] BlueWall Slade: yes, even if the XML-RPC channel was responsive enough for MIDI control apps, it still is a guess whether it will sync with the animations, etc. at different viewers locations
[2007/10/06 15:14] Prospero Linden: Yeah, with a reference you can sync up. I know with my experience doing chamber music, though, that there’s give and take and live feedback that a metronome-style reference would make impossible.
[2007/10/06 15:14] Prospero Linden: Jazz : I’m not really sure, but 40ms is 0.04 seconds.
[2007/10/06 15:15] Da5id Zsigmond: At least you would know where the downbeat was.
[2007/10/06 15:15] Leslee McCarey: true Prospero – only really works for straight midi
[2007/10/06 15:15] Dizzy Banjo: 40ms would be tricky
[2007/10/06 15:15] Prospero Linden: If you’re playing something fast, and you’re not synced to better than 0.1 seconds, it won’t sound together.
[2007/10/06 15:15] Kaiser Bogomil: no 40ms is .004
[2007/10/06 15:15] Prospero Linden: 0.004 is 4ms
[2007/10/06 15:15] Dizzy Banjo: in the studio ..i record at about 7ms
[2007/10/06 15:15] Domchi Underwood: What’s the JIRA URL for RL physics bugs? )
[2007/10/06 15:15] Colpa LeMay: I guess my avi will need to learn to play music, then our avis can meet at the server and play together
[2007/10/06 15:15] Da5id Zsigmond: if you’re 30 feet away from someone that’s 30 msec and it seems o.k.
[2007/10/06 15:16] Dizzy Banjo: it is possible to compensate as a musician .. up to even 50 – 60ms
[2007/10/06 15:16] Prospero Linden: Yeah
[2007/10/06 15:16] Dizzy Banjo: but its not really very nice
[2007/10/06 15:16] Kaiser Bogomil: hehe nope
[2007/10/06 15:16] No Freenote: i prefer machine quantization
[2007/10/06 15:16] Da5id Zsigmond: need a click track.
[2007/10/06 15:16] Prospero Linden: I’m a violinist and a violist, so in orchestras I tend to be pretty close to the conductor.
[2007/10/06 15:16] Dizzy Banjo: eJamming audio works on that principle
[2007/10/06 15:16] Dizzy Banjo: that you adjust
[2007/10/06 15:16] Prospero Linden: I’m not sure how the brass players and percussion players cope with that whole speed of sound thing.
[2007/10/06 15:16] BlueWall Slade: pro-audio installations have to use delays and banks of speakers to get the sound right
[2007/10/06 15:16] Jazz Glineux: i wonder da5id, though, whether the brain adjust differently to the latency when u can see the other people
[2007/10/06 15:17] Dizzy Banjo: also its very different in a real acoustic
[2007/10/06 15:17] Regi Vollmar: but, we colud play with a midi reference (midi file without our track), that sync our music too, and then assemblate it in the clients of who receive
[2007/10/06 15:17] Da5id Zsigmond: if the sound comes late its o.k not if it comes before the action.
[2007/10/06 15:17] Prospero Linden: Jazz : yeah, well that *is* how orchestras are supposed to work; watch the conductor, as the speed of light is effectively infinite over orcehstra spatial sales and even allegro molto vivace time scales.
[2007/10/06 15:17] Dizzy Banjo: you have bounced sound coming at various latencies from lots of surfaces
[2007/10/06 15:17] Dizzy Banjo: yes also good orchestras play “ahead”
[2007/10/06 15:17] Da5id Zsigmond: our brains want to cooperate.
[2007/10/06 15:17] No Freenote: with the latency issue being a more or less fixed problem, would it be a benefit for sl to host a sample bank or similar type of musician swap?
[2007/10/06 15:17] Da5id Zsigmond: but there are limits.
[2007/10/06 15:18] Jazz Glineux: yes, rl conductors function differently than wire conductors
[2007/10/06 15:18] Prospero Linden: Jazz : that depends on whether or not their players try to electrocute them
[2007/10/06 15:18] Da5id Zsigmond: lol
[2007/10/06 15:18] BlueWall Slade: hehe
[2007/10/06 15:18] Jazz Glineux: lol
[2007/10/06 15:18] Jazz Glineux: a shocking thought
[2007/10/06 15:19] Dizzy Banjo: theres another more architectural issue here which relates the the SL Grid expansion / new grid.. whatever it is ( im confused about it atm )
[2007/10/06 15:19] Da5id Zsigmond: midi gives the opportunity to streamline data transfer.
[2007/10/06 15:19] Dizzy Banjo: the possibility of offline content
[2007/10/06 15:19] Da5id Zsigmond: send the notes not the audio.
[2007/10/06 15:19] Joi Koi: With shared samplebanks clientside the midi info tiny
[2007/10/06 15:19] Da5id Zsigmond: right.
[2007/10/06 15:19] Joi Koi: *is tiny
[2007/10/06 15:20] Da5id Zsigmond: could even be a sample exchange or preload.
[2007/10/06 15:20] Dizzy Banjo: this is going back to uploaded audio now.. or more specifically how assets are delivered to teh client
[2007/10/06 15:20] Jazz Glineux: midi is pretty ancient and slow (31khz), i wonder if there are alternatives to represent notes and expressions over the internet
[2007/10/06 15:20] BlueWall Slade: SL-Soundfont lol
[2007/10/06 15:20] Da5id Zsigmond: which ones when.
[2007/10/06 15:20] Dizzy Banjo: yes blue
[2007/10/06 15:20] Dizzy Banjo: of sorts
[2007/10/06 15:20] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 15:21] Da5id Zsigmond: midi was old when it was introduced.
[2007/10/06 15:21] Jazz Glineux: lol
[2007/10/06 15:21] Kaiser Bogomil: there are other soundfonts too
[2007/10/06 15:21] Leslee McCarey: LOL Da5id
[2007/10/06 15:21] No Freenote: musical morse code
[2007/10/06 15:21] Da5id Zsigmond: a custom version for alt worlds would be the key
[2007/10/06 15:21] BlueWall Slade: midi works though – for many things
[2007/10/06 15:21] Kaiser Bogomil: I’d suggest using those
[2007/10/06 15:21] Da5id Zsigmond: it is a standard everyone knows.
[2007/10/06 15:21] Dizzy Banjo: in an open source grid architecture.. could we have regions where you need an “install pack” .. which could be a large seperate download.. prior to entering..
[2007/10/06 15:21] Prospero Linden remembers reading about MIDI in his Commodore 64 magazines
[2007/10/06 15:21] Regi Vollmar: but to work with instruments, we must use midi
[2007/10/06 15:21] Kaiser Bogomil: lol
[2007/10/06 15:21] BlueWall Slade: Dizzy: good idea
[2007/10/06 15:21] Da5id Zsigmond: you too
[2007/10/06 15:22] Dizzy Banjo: this is quite a radical departure from the total streaming model of SL atm
[2007/10/06 15:22] Toze Barbosa: midi and soundfont is a dream
[2007/10/06 15:22] Kaiser Bogomil: & with that download – you’d want to know when it was done
[2007/10/06 15:22] BlueWall Slade: lol – dirt is old too, but we seem to still use it for lots of things heh
[2007/10/06 15:22] No Freenote: or better, client side synths…. i run some cpu light vsts
[2007/10/06 15:22] Da5id Zsigmond: It seems to me there is a delay while a new soundfile is downloaded to me and then is played by my system.
[2007/10/06 15:22] Dizzy Banjo: but .. theoretically combining local “sample libraries”.. with MIDI in SL.. could be utterly awesome for very specific audio work in virtual environments
[2007/10/06 15:23] Regi Vollmar: and the result depends on the sound card in the receiver computer
[2007/10/06 15:23] Prospero Linden: Kaiser : that’s hard to know when it’s done, esp. if agent presence is dynamic. If people are coming and going, the download may never be “done”. (Unless you’re talking about *client* side, in which case it’s easy. SErver side is harder.)
[2007/10/06 15:23] Prospero Linden: Da5id : defrinitely, there’s a delay.
[2007/10/06 15:23] Prospero Linden chafes at the limitation of only being able to queue up one sound.
[2007/10/06 15:23] Toze Barbosa: yep, delay for first time it plays
[2007/10/06 15:23] Kaiser Bogomil: yes without something like “new client in range” event
[2007/10/06 15:23] Prospero Linden has been working on a clock that does Big Ben and then chimes the hour, but has yet to get all the synicing work right so everybody (or anybody?) hears the right number of “bongs”.
[2007/10/06 15:24] Da5id Zsigmond: After that though I know I can play other sounds and the first is still available fast.
[2007/10/06 15:24] No Freenote: “SL = Free to Join! : System Requirements, Pro Tools 6.9″
[2007/10/06 15:24] Dizzy Banjo: prospero.. as part of this groups endeavour.. it would be really good if you / someone at LL.. could give us a breakdown of the “journey of a soundfile” from client machine.. up to servers.. and then from servers back to client and playing in world..
[2007/10/06 15:24] Kaiser Bogomil: but that’s ok – radio is like that too
[2007/10/06 15:24] Prospero Linden: Kaiser : but I think that Dizzy was talking about something where the pack must be fully downloaded before you can even enter… that would dodget that problem.
[2007/10/06 15:24] Dizzy Banjo: yes
[2007/10/06 15:24] Joi Koi: Absolutely dizzy I could have a half hour composition in less space than a single Texture
[2007/10/06 15:24] Da5id Zsigmond: I would love to know that.
[2007/10/06 15:24] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/10/06 15:24] Prospero Linden: Dizzy : I don’t know enough to be able to give that to you right now
[2007/10/06 15:24] Leslee McCarey: LOL Freenote
[2007/10/06 15:24] Dizzy Banjo: lol not now
[2007/10/06 15:25] Da5id Zsigmond: but soon?
[2007/10/06 15:25] Prospero Linden: I could try to figure it out.
[2007/10/06 15:25] Dizzy Banjo: ive been searching around trying to find it
[2007/10/06 15:25] Prospero Linden: The hard part would be figuring out the right people to talk to.
[2007/10/06 15:25] Dizzy Banjo: i just want to get my head around the entire process.. including the audio compression
[2007/10/06 15:25] Kaiser Bogomil: so you’d want to be able to detect that the pack was downloaded & available before starting a piece – right?
[2007/10/06 15:25] Da5id Zsigmond: We keep moving around issues of what I think of as causation.
[2007/10/06 15:25] Prospero Linden: It may well be that different parts of the process were written by different people, and that nobody has a good *over*view… but probably *somebody* does.
[2007/10/06 15:25] Da5id Zsigmond: How do you tell SL to do this and when.
[2007/10/06 15:25] Dizzy Banjo: lol..
[2007/10/06 15:26] Dizzy Banjo: this is why id love to see a “head of audio dev” at LL
[2007/10/06 15:26] BlueWall Slade: a soft-synth in the viewer
[2007/10/06 15:26] Prospero Linden: I just have no clue whom to ask (I’m new.)
[2007/10/06 15:26] BlueWall Slade: that woudl do it
[2007/10/06 15:26] Prospero Linden: Well, I will figure out whom to ask.
[2007/10/06 15:26] Da5id Zsigmond: where do you apply. lol
[2007/10/06 15:26] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 15:26] Prospero Linden: I will ask people until I get pointed to the right person.
[2007/10/06 15:26] Toze Barbosa: apply diizzy!
[2007/10/06 15:26] Dizzy Banjo: that would be brilliant Prospero thanks
[2007/10/06 15:27] Dizzy Banjo: ok so yeah i was talking about a preloaded download pack
[2007/10/06 15:27] Joi Koi: Dizzy is on the next Virgin Atlantuic flight to SF
[2007/10/06 15:27] Da5id Zsigmond: available in inventory.
[2007/10/06 15:27] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/10/06 15:27] Dizzy Banjo: which just have locally and you just wander into a region and your machine can trigger loads of lush 24 bit audio samples perfectly.. lol
[2007/10/06 15:27] Da5id Zsigmond: why not.
[2007/10/06 15:27] Dizzy Banjo: hi domchi
[2007/10/06 15:27] Domchi Underwood: Sorry, crashed. I crash a lot.
[2007/10/06 15:28] BlueWall Slade: Yes Dizzy: that sound interesting
[2007/10/06 15:28] Kaiser Bogomil: just like a sim will send textures to your machine
[2007/10/06 15:28] Jazz Glineux: prospero, theres a guy named aric rubin thats an expert in all kinds of audio and music, i spoke to him a while ago and he planned to accept an offer to work for linden labs
[2007/10/06 15:28] No Freenote: you would have to have a head of audio then to manage which samples are run
[2007/10/06 15:28] Da5id Zsigmond: cool
[2007/10/06 15:28] Dizzy Banjo: yeh he is a linden now
[2007/10/06 15:28] Dizzy Banjo: Aric Linden
[2007/10/06 15:28] No Freenote: which are included
[2007/10/06 15:28] Dizzy Banjo: he was going to come along today but he is at an event
[2007/10/06 15:29] Prospero Linden: Ah! He’s probably a better one to put together the “journal of a soundfile” documentation, then, because he’s got a head start on me.
[2007/10/06 15:29] Jazz Glineux: cool, he has done a lot of interesting stuff
[2007/10/06 15:29] Da5id Zsigmond: where’s he from
[2007/10/06 15:29] Jazz Glineux: have u spoken with him dizzy?
[2007/10/06 15:29] Prospero Linden: He’s in the SF office now.
[2007/10/06 15:29] Dizzy Banjo: yeh
[2007/10/06 15:29] BlueWall Slade: Dizzy: that might even allow collab. work with electronic musicians
[2007/10/06 15:29] Regi Vollmar: does radio inside world exist yet, that stream music?
[2007/10/06 15:29] Jazz Glineux: i’ll have to drop him a line, tell him hi from dan sullivan
[2007/10/06 15:29] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/10/06 15:30] Leslee McCarey: Regi – yes
[2007/10/06 15:30] Dizzy Banjo: yes blue.. MIDI in SL.. plus local sound library.. would be great
[2007/10/06 15:30] Toze Barbosa: leslee: it does?
[2007/10/06 15:30] Leslee McCarey: look for SLtunes
[2007/10/06 15:30] Joi Koi: 7.1 spacial audio environments.
[2007/10/06 15:30] Leslee McCarey: will stream any online station listed @ itunes
[2007/10/06 15:30] BlueWall Slade: yep: a suft-synth in the viewer
[2007/10/06 15:30] BlueWall Slade: soft*
[2007/10/06 15:31] Dizzy Banjo: ok so.. those are most of the issues which i had in mind for discussion really
[2007/10/06 15:31] Toze Barbosa: soft-wynth? so we’re back to GM soundcard sounds?
[2007/10/06 15:31] Leslee McCarey: there’s also a new SL radio station
[2007/10/06 15:31] BlueWall Slade: yes Toze
[2007/10/06 15:31] BlueWall Slade: soundfonts
[2007/10/06 15:31] Regi Vollmar: ok thx leslee
[2007/10/06 15:31] Toze Barbosa digs is harddrive for 1994 compositions
[2007/10/06 15:31] Joi Koi: whats the url Leslee
[2007/10/06 15:31] Dizzy Banjo: well.. it needent necessarily be just for collaboration
[2007/10/06 15:31] Dizzy Banjo: maybe we should move on.. and discuss use cases
[2007/10/06 15:32] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/10/06 15:32] Leslee McCarey: Joi – for SLTuens, use search and find in-world
[2007/10/06 15:32] Leslee McCarey: I’m getting the SL Radio info
[2007/10/06 15:32] BlueWall Slade: yes, patches for any sound we need for the environment
[2007/10/06 15:32] Dizzy Banjo: theres a few areas which i can see all these technologies potentially being useful for
[2007/10/06 15:32] Toze Barbosa: i have one use case:
[2007/10/06 15:32] Regi Vollmar: do they stream also outside, on the web? (the SL radios)
[2007/10/06 15:33] Dizzy Banjo: obviously .. in world live music collaboration and streaming that live back into the environment spatially would be incredible
[2007/10/06 15:33] Toze Barbosa: instruments that play loops and can be played by anyone
[2007/10/06 15:33] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/10/06 15:33] Leslee McCarey: Regi – yes – and they’re playing SL performers
[2007/10/06 15:33] Regi Vollmar: great
[2007/10/06 15:33] Toze Barbosa: I got a bunch that are suposed to play a loop library
[2007/10/06 15:33] Toze Barbosa: and synchronized
[2007/10/06 15:33] Da5id Zsigmond: how do you sync those is an issue.
[2007/10/06 15:33] Dizzy Banjo: then all this could be used to drastically improve the audio landscape of SL
[2007/10/06 15:33] Dizzy Banjo: which IMHO is apalling in general atm
[2007/10/06 15:33] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 15:34] Toze Barbosa: but every time you change pattern… it takes like 10 seconds of silence for him to rejoin the jam
[2007/10/06 15:34] Leslee McCarey: : SLmusic – http://www.secondjam.com:8000
[2007/10/06 15:34] Leslee McCarey: drop the port for the website
[2007/10/06 15:34] Da5id Zsigmond: that’s where the preload has to come in.
[2007/10/06 15:34] Jazz Glineux: an interactive loop player in which all the loops are preselected to work well would be a fun idea toze
[2007/10/06 15:34] Joi Koi: chheers Leslee
[2007/10/06 15:34] BlueWall Slade: Dizzy: so we would have a default set of environmental sounds
[2007/10/06 15:34] Da5id Zsigmond: I have one of those.
[2007/10/06 15:34] BlueWall Slade: in the soundfont
[2007/10/06 15:34] Toze Barbosa: yes i boought a combo of those
[2007/10/06 15:34] Dizzy Banjo: possibly..
[2007/10/06 15:35] Toze Barbosa: and they work well after you and your friends go through all the 30 or so loops in each istrument
[2007/10/06 15:35] Dizzy Banjo: one approach could be to have a “lite” client install
[2007/10/06 15:35] Dizzy Banjo: and a “full” client install
[2007/10/06 15:35] Dizzy Banjo: the full client install would be much much bigger
[2007/10/06 15:35] Dizzy Banjo: and have loads of local sounds
[2007/10/06 15:35] BlueWall Slade: hmm, custom installs for music events, etc
[2007/10/06 15:35] Toze Barbosa: i don’t really agree with any thing that requires users to opt in an install

[2007/10/06 15:36] Dizzy Banjo: i understand your point toze
[2007/10/06 15:36] BlueWall Slade: a circus, play, fair, etc.
[2007/10/06 15:36] Da5id Zsigmond: It would be nice to have different ambience available. Traffic, Birds, etc..
[2007/10/06 15:36] Prospero Linden: You can “preload” sounds, which means get them cached on the viewer before they are played.
[2007/10/06 15:36] No Freenote thinks this thread is odd, because what he loves most about 2nd life is selected silence.
[2007/10/06 15:36] Prospero Linden: But if people come after the “preload” in the script has run, they won’t get the preload.
[2007/10/06 15:36] Da5id Zsigmond: You can always turn it off.
[2007/10/06 15:36] Kaiser Bogomil: unless the preload works like textures
[2007/10/06 15:37] Toze Barbosa: problem there is time signature
[2007/10/06 15:37] Da5id Zsigmond: You can build the preload into a detect script.
[2007/10/06 15:37] Kaiser Bogomil: you can enter a sim “late” and still get the graphics
[2007/10/06 15:37] BlueWall Slade: with the soundfont – the sound is already there, and many timing issues are solved
[2007/10/06 15:37] Leslee McCarey: seems it would need to load like texures since avies come & go with such abandon (& crashes)
[2007/10/06 15:37] Prospero Linden: Da5id — yeah.
[2007/10/06 15:37] Kaiser Bogomil: you could have default instruments that play until the preload is ready
[2007/10/06 15:37] Dizzy Banjo: yeh a detect works
[2007/10/06 15:37] Toze Barbosa: yep, but graphics don’t have toplay along with the tempo
[2007/10/06 15:37] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 15:37] Da5id Zsigmond: We have all the same issues as graphics.
[2007/10/06 15:37] Prospero Linden: What Toze said
[2007/10/06 15:37] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/10/06 15:37] Prospero Linden: Textures are static
[2007/10/06 15:37] Da5id Zsigmond: What do you stream and what can you model in the client.
[2007/10/06 15:38] Leslee McCarey: except, Da5id, graphix don’t have a time signature!
[2007/10/06 15:38] BlueWall Slade: Toze: they should – to a point be in synch
[2007/10/06 15:38] Kaiser Bogomil: that’s right & you wouldn’t treat them that way either
[2007/10/06 15:38] Da5id Zsigmond: the time aspect does complicate things. lol
[2007/10/06 15:38] Toze Barbosa: don’t really think it complicates
[2007/10/06 15:38] No Freenote: 3D is like time, though…
[2007/10/06 15:38] Da5id Zsigmond: but the principle is the same. How to get interesting results efficiently so its fast.
[2007/10/06 15:38] Toze Barbosa: it just differs in one new dimension from the rest
[2007/10/06 15:39] Toze Barbosa: but are we talking about MIDI stream?
[2007/10/06 15:39] Jazz Glineux: i dont know the scripting language very well at all, but is there not a way to send out a midi command or data from touching an object here? is that the command that was referred to earlier that doesnt work?
[2007/10/06 15:39] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/10/06 15:39] Toze Barbosa: midi is really bandwidth cheap
[2007/10/06 15:39] Prospero Linden: Toze : time is different from spatial dimensions. It’s got that negative sign in the metric
[2007/10/06 15:39] Da5id Zsigmond: Midi is one way to make musical applications more efficient in bandwidth.
[2007/10/06 15:39] Kaiser Bogomil:
[2007/10/06 15:39] Prospero Linden was a physicist and an astronomer before becoming a Linden… he knows GR
[2007/10/06 15:39] Dizzy Banjo: lol prospero
[2007/10/06 15:40] Toze Barbosa: lol
[2007/10/06 15:40] Kaiser Bogomil: I know a bit of GR too
[2007/10/06 15:40] Prospero Linden: But, truthfully, there is something different about the time dimension than spatial dimensions.
[2007/10/06 15:40] Toze Barbosa: and are we talking soundfonts like in sf2?
[2007/10/06 15:40] Jazz Glineux: but time has spatial needs
[2007/10/06 15:40] BlueWall Slade: if a live show is happening, the music stops and the avatyes
[2007/10/06 15:40] Da5id Zsigmond: There are some things we just won’t be able to do. they need real time.
[2007/10/06 15:40] Prospero Linden: And not just the signature in the metric Practically for SL, time is serial and goes in one direction. Space can be much more randomly sampled.
[2007/10/06 15:40] Kaiser Bogomil: that’s right Da5id
[2007/10/06 15:41] Dizzy Banjo: lol god prospero
[2007/10/06 15:41] Toze Barbosa: are we talking about good ol sf2?
[2007/10/06 15:41] Dizzy Banjo: lol i dont know what format these midi triggered samples would be
[2007/10/06 15:41] BlueWall Slade: Toze: yes
[2007/10/06 15:41] Kaiser Bogomil: dependancies are dependencies & you treat them as such – time isn’t an issue when you know ppl won’t be ready for the download “intime”
[2007/10/06 15:41] Dizzy Banjo: its completely theoretical really
[2007/10/06 15:41] Toze Barbosa: sf2 is just brilliant for this
[2007/10/06 15:42] Da5id Zsigmond: what is sf2?
[2007/10/06 15:42] Dizzy Banjo: yeh it could be the way
[2007/10/06 15:42] Toze Barbosa: but should be limited to some extent
[2007/10/06 15:42] BlueWall Slade: Sound Blaster lol
[2007/10/06 15:42] Dizzy Banjo: Zero had some intersting ideas about this
[2007/10/06 15:42] Dizzy Banjo: he was involved in music himself i think
[2007/10/06 15:42] Toze Barbosa: like textures are to 1024×1024 …. so that people don’t try to upload 10MB realistic piano soundfonts
[2007/10/06 15:43] Kaiser Bogomil: hehe – right
[2007/10/06 15:43] Toze Barbosa: a 64KB piano is awsome wnough for where we are right now
[2007/10/06 15:43] Da5id Zsigmond: It would fit on my hard drive.
[2007/10/06 15:43] Kaiser Bogomil: lol
[2007/10/06 15:43] Toze Barbosa: this could open up a whole new world of music colaoration, composition, jaming etc…
[2007/10/06 15:43] Dizzy Banjo: yes
[2007/10/06 15:43] Toze Barbosa: *colaboration
[2007/10/06 15:43] Joi Koi wants to know how to measure the signal to noise ratio of this discussion
[2007/10/06 15:44] Leslee McCarey: LOL Joi
[2007/10/06 15:44] Dizzy Banjo: this is one thing.. i have to say.. i think LL really dont realise how close they are to achieving
[2007/10/06 15:44] Kaiser Bogomil: LOL – good point!
[2007/10/06 15:44] Toze Barbosa: lol! Joi
[2007/10/06 15:44] Da5id Zsigmond: they really just need direction I think.
[2007/10/06 15:44] Kaiser Bogomil: the midi would solve some big issues
[2007/10/06 15:44] Toze Barbosa: I’m sorry, I was so late and then so enthusiastic, but the convesration was really at triggering the WOW factor in me
[2007/10/06 15:44] Prospero Linden: Toze : what does this have to do with World Of Warcraft???? (Just kidding )
[2007/10/06 15:45] Dizzy Banjo: there are so many other collaborative tools inside this platform.. but the market for collaboration with musicians is VAST
[2007/10/06 15:45] BlueWall Slade: an electronic groit still leaves a gap for us analogerrs
[2007/10/06 15:45] BlueWall Slade: lol
[2007/10/06 15:45] Joi Koi: Ha ha ….aaaaaagh
[2007/10/06 15:45] Prospero Linden: There is definitely recognition within the company that music is important to SL.
[2007/10/06 15:45] Dizzy Banjo: also.. many virtual worlds are specifically hopping onto the “music world”
[2007/10/06 15:45] Prospero Linden: Isn’t there a music portal on the SL Wiki?
[2007/10/06 15:45] Kaiser Bogomil: and with a default font everyone would hear the music -but just not the same as everyone else – Linden could charge for the realy good stuff
[2007/10/06 15:45] Regi Vollmar: I’m a singer, and normally when i make exercices i use midi files without the voice track; the same can be done here. I sing on a midi track, someone else play on a midi track (without his instrument). All the sounds are assembled in sync at server side and then streamed to clients. The midi is used to syncro between players.
[2007/10/06 15:45] Joi Koi: Prospero its not only music the ambient sound is dreadful
[2007/10/06 15:46] Da5id Zsigmond: There are times when it may be appropriate to stream from the server and other times in the client.
[2007/10/06 15:46] Prospero Linden: Joi : yeah. But part of that is the builders — while the sound tools are very limited, we *do* have ability to do better with ambient sounds that you usually see.
[2007/10/06 15:46] Prospero Linden: There are some places that have quite nice ambient sounds.
[2007/10/06 15:46] Kaiser Bogomil: I agree
[2007/10/06 15:46] Toze Barbosa: yes, the ambient sound is good…but still random
[2007/10/06 15:46] Joi Koi: ok ok
[2007/10/06 15:47] Prospero Linden: For instance : visit Torley’s office in Linden Village. He’s got a sort of ambient sound track with some piano bits and other things going on that really seems to fit the mode of the place.
[2007/10/06 15:47] Toze Barbosa: you can’t just sync stuff
[2007/10/06 15:47] Dizzy Banjo: sure.. i think it is recognised.. i suppose i just see the missing aspects of the sound experience in SL.. and also the possibility of merging lots of ideas about collaboration in music .. into this. which is just a superb collaborative platform as it is
[2007/10/06 15:47] Toze Barbosa: I’ve been owrking in a SIM that would be 10 times better if we could sync the sounds
[2007/10/06 15:47] Dizzy Banjo: yeah i try to do stuff which sets a mood here too
[2007/10/06 15:47] Toze Barbosa: it involves cars, shooting sounds, and stuff
[2007/10/06 15:47] Prospero Linden: Yeah. Syncing is hard.
[2007/10/06 15:47] Dizzy Banjo: over by the pool with crickets etc
[2007/10/06 15:47] Joi Koi: I must check that out….I just hear that ghosttown rumble a lot
[2007/10/06 15:47] Toze Barbosa: syncing is impossible prospero
[2007/10/06 15:48] Da5id Zsigmond: depends – some things you can synd.
[2007/10/06 15:48] Da5id Zsigmond: sync
[2007/10/06 15:48] Prospero Linden: Impossible? Some things are.
[2007/10/06 15:48] Toze Barbosa: because sync, really means sync… not aprox
[2007/10/06 15:48] Kaiser Bogomil: and for everyone
[2007/10/06 15:48] Prospero Linden: I would have said that syncing animations is impossible, and yet there are pairs dance balls that manage to do it.
[2007/10/06 15:48] Prospero Linden: And group dance balls.
[2007/10/06 15:48] Miulew Takahe: /(sorry to be awfully late…. i try to listen in a little what you are discussing)
[2007/10/06 15:48] Dizzy Banjo: ok.. another issue id like to get back to.. which is one of the “provokative comments” on this group discussion.. is soundtracks.. my primary interest
[2007/10/06 15:48] Prospero Linden: (Animations are also done client side, and don’t start until they’re downlaoded.)
[2007/10/06 15:49] Dizzy Banjo: alot of what we have talked about so far.. as been revolving around either ambient sound, streaming music, or live music
[2007/10/06 15:49] Da5id Zsigmond: The dance ball is a good example
[2007/10/06 15:49] Dizzy Banjo: there is another category..
[2007/10/06 15:49] Toze Barbosa: yes, exactly prospero, that’s why experienced clubers stop and start dances to get in-sync
[2007/10/06 15:49] Dizzy Banjo: which is persistent in world musical soundtracks
[2007/10/06 15:50] Toze Barbosa: but you can’t exepect people to do that with sound/music/ambience/soundtracks because there will be no community standard for that
[2007/10/06 15:50] Toze Barbosa: can you imagine the hover text?
[2007/10/06 15:50] Dizzy Banjo: this is something which so far is only really achievable via a landstream..
[2007/10/06 15:50] Toze Barbosa: “touch to preload, then stop, then play again to get in sync”
[2007/10/06 15:50] Prospero Linden: Toze : I’ve seen syncing danceballs where nobody had to do anything in particular, they just managed to sync up. Sometimes out of sync at first, but then they synced later.
[2007/10/06 15:51] Prospero Linden: Dizzy : I could imagine some faking it on, for instance, one of those automated “tour” things that you see some places.
[2007/10/06 15:51] No Freenote: i went to a movie in sl last night and was yelling at the screen only to find out that the movie was in different places for each of the viewers….
[2007/10/06 15:51] Toze Barbosa: prospero: you’re probably right, I’m not a cluber myself… but let’s listen to Dizzy
[2007/10/06 15:51] Domchi Underwood: Synching poseballs can be done with no problem.
[2007/10/06 15:51] Dizzy Banjo: but it has a real potential to transform a space.. part of working out the “uploaded preload issues” would be to be able to have positional music in world.. from objects.. which laid out a soundtrack across a space..
[2007/10/06 15:51] Prospero Linden: The 10s limit makes that *tough*, though.
[2007/10/06 15:51] Dizzy Banjo: yes
[2007/10/06 15:51] Da5id Zsigmond: That of course is one scipt that’s animating two avs.
[2007/10/06 15:52] Joi Koi: Voice in objects….like u said
[2007/10/06 15:52] Leslee McCarey: Da5id – some animate multiple avs in sync – e.g., Silver Slipper line dances
[2007/10/06 15:52] Dizzy Banjo: this is why i just want to understand the whole process with 10s audio
[2007/10/06 15:52] Dizzy Banjo: or find work arounds yes joi
[2007/10/06 15:52] Da5id Zsigmond: If its a bandwidth issue could we trade time for frequency response or compression.
[2007/10/06 15:53] Dizzy Banjo: yeh a way of controlling the compression would be good
[2007/10/06 15:53] Da5id Zsigmond: Yeah Leslee but that’s one script that controls multiple things rather than multiple scipts syncing.
[2007/10/06 15:53] Leslee McCarey: Da3 – true
[2007/10/06 15:53] Jazz Glineux: i wonder if its possible to take the 10 secs of sound data and convert it into midi at the client
[2007/10/06 15:54] No Freenote: it opens up the possibility for music sales in sl as well where an avatar could purchase the sample pack for a song release…
[2007/10/06 15:54] Toze Barbosa: no, jazz, don’t really think that’s the way
[2007/10/06 15:54] Da5id Zsigmond: the equivalent data in a midi stream would play hours of music.
[2007/10/06 15:54] Kaiser Bogomil: good point No
[2007/10/06 15:54] Dizzy Banjo: id like to hear what you all think about soundtracks in general.. not from a technical point of view.. but from an experiential one
[2007/10/06 15:54] Toze Barbosa: exactlye
[2007/10/06 15:54] Dizzy Banjo: in world soundtracks i mean
[2007/10/06 15:54] Jazz Glineux: probably not, but it would be a lot of midi data
[2007/10/06 15:54] Dizzy Banjo: for instance ..
[2007/10/06 15:54] Dizzy Banjo: im working on a soundtrack for a multi sim build at the moment
[2007/10/06 15:55] Toze Barbosa: a standard 10KB midi file can hold a full orchestra playing for 30 minutes
[2007/10/06 15:55] No Freenote: i’ve spent 30 years in headphones. soundtracking is vital.
[2007/10/06 15:55] BlueWall Slade: the Cruxy player is a good promo tool if media could be de-coupled from the land
[2007/10/06 15:55] Da5id Zsigmond: It adds another layer of richness to the experience.
[2007/10/06 15:55] Jazz Glineux: i mean, think of the old modems, they converted essentially what was audio into data
[2007/10/06 15:55] Leslee McCarey: Dizzy – it woud be great to be able to do – I’ve only seen some piano stuff done as a series of 10s linked – Sue Stonebender’s piano music
[2007/10/06 15:55] Dizzy Banjo: this one is for a country – mexico..
[2007/10/06 15:55] Prospero Linden: Digital Alchemy’s pianos, too.
[2007/10/06 15:56] Dizzy Banjo: it will be implemented on the land stream
[2007/10/06 15:56] Prospero Linden: (Is it Digital Alchemy?)
[2007/10/06 15:56] Dizzy Banjo: because there is no other way of doing it atm really
[2007/10/06 15:56] Dizzy Banjo: persistence wil be achieved.. by the landstreams being on permanently.. lol
[2007/10/06 15:56] Da5id Zsigmond: A soundtrack would be a lot of data – essentially a stream or a big wmv file.
[2007/10/06 15:56] Dizzy Banjo: but its not truly “inworld”
[2007/10/06 15:56] Prospero Linden: Dizzy : the streams just loop through their tracks forever?
[2007/10/06 15:57] Toze Barbosa: dizzy: i don’t think there is a workaround for that
[2007/10/06 15:57] Dizzy Banjo: well.. i want to do it in a modular compostional method
[2007/10/06 15:57] Toze Barbosa: you need a stream of audio, you need a streaming server
[2007/10/06 15:57] No Freenote: sounds like this thai restaraunt i go to. they only have one song.
[2007/10/06 15:57] Joi Koi: I love soundscapes / installations if they are interesting …..I think they shoud be organic or at least temporary and change often
[2007/10/06 15:57] Dizzy Banjo: ive done work on games in the past which had numerous versions of very similar cues..
[2007/10/06 15:57] Leslee McCarey: LOL No
[2007/10/06 15:57] Da5id Zsigmond: You can sort of do that now – I have some records that have managed to sequentially play files o.k.
[2007/10/06 15:58] Toze Barbosa: and streaming from server to viwers is the right way to do it, there can be network discrpancies of course, but you can’t have the SL server handle the payload there
[2007/10/06 15:58] Dizzy Banjo: this will have a series of segments that will fit together in crossfades from teh shoutcast server
[2007/10/06 15:58] Jazz Glineux: *still musing* – if u select an inworld 10s file, u are getting data at some point that is in ur pcs memory, if there was some format for encoding midi formats that could then be extracted- ??
[2007/10/06 15:58] Leslee McCarey: Dizzy – using multiple parcels within the sim?
[2007/10/06 15:58] Dizzy Banjo: yes
[2007/10/06 15:59] No Freenote: you could rez dummy av’s dizzy, make them invisible, and use their individual voice channels…
[2007/10/06 15:59] Prospero Linden: Dizzy : given that there is always a delay, and different people hear different streams at different times, I’d think that getting the cross-fading synced would be a nightmare….
[2007/10/06 15:59] Joi Koi almost turns into Cinderella, its almost midnight here, I gotta go Thanks Dizzy for hosting and to all you other lovely people for sharing Bye Bye
[2007/10/06 15:59] Kaiser Bogomil: but sound in one parcel can’t be heard in another – can it?
[2007/10/06 15:59] Prospero Linden: Not the stream, Kaiser
[2007/10/06 15:59] Toze Barbosa: i do agree that parcel/stream copling is the most braindamaging feaure of SL
[2007/10/06 15:59] Da5id Zsigmond: by joe
[2007/10/06 15:59] Prospero Linden: Ambient sounds can.
[2007/10/06 15:59] Da5id Zsigmond: joi
[2007/10/06 15:59] Dizzy Banjo: no the crossfading works on the shoutcast end
[2007/10/06 15:59] No Freenote: which sounds like your voice prims now that i think about it….
[2007/10/06 15:59] Kaiser Bogomil: ahhh – but are ambient sounds > 10s?
[2007/10/06 15:59] Dizzy Banjo: and the music will be composed to have nice “non time dependent” ends and starts to cues
[2007/10/06 16:00] Toze Barbosa: kaiser: no they’re <10s
[2007/10/06 16:00] Prospero Linden: Dizzy — right, but suppose you’re in the middle of stream 1, then walk to the place where stream 1 and stream 2 are mixed. How will you be sure that the spot where the mix is in stream 1 is the same as where the full stream 1 was when the avatar cross parcels?
[2007/10/06 16:00] Kaiser Bogomil:
[2007/10/06 16:00] No Freenote: ok. i gotta go. i luv you guys cuz you make me feel sooooo dumb. keep me interested.
[2007/10/06 16:00] No Freenote: cheers.
[2007/10/06 16:00] Dizzy Banjo: btw. No : im doing that idea on another project
[2007/10/06 16:00] Prospero Linden: Dizzy : OK, if you design the music to work with it, then I can see it working
[2007/10/06 16:00] Dizzy Banjo: thanks for coming no
[2007/10/06 16:00] Dizzy Banjo: yeah
[2007/10/06 16:00] Dizzy Banjo: its going to need to be specifically writen for it
[2007/10/06 16:01] Regi Vollmar: bye
[2007/10/06 16:01] Leslee McCarey: LOL Freenote – consider it mental calisthenics
[2007/10/06 16:01] Toze Barbosa: and that’s a drag dizzy
[2007/10/06 16:01] Da5id Zsigmond: Is it tempo based?
[2007/10/06 16:01] Kaiser Bogomil: and won’t it be different for different ppl?
[2007/10/06 16:01] Dizzy Banjo: not so much for soundtracks
[2007/10/06 16:01] Toze Barbosa: it’s like me designing parcels and therefore rental policies
[2007/10/06 16:01] Dizzy Banjo: yes it will.. but not radically different
[2007/10/06 16:01] Toze Barbosa: based on streaming options!

[2007/10/06 16:02] Dizzy Banjo: yeh this is for a different type of build from rental though
[2007/10/06 16:02] Toze Barbosa: i had to redesign the whole SIM parcels because of some streaming options i had
[2007/10/06 16:02] Dizzy Banjo: its virtual tourism really
[2007/10/06 16:02] Toze Barbosa: there are no boundaries there,

[2007/10/06 16:02] Toze Barbosa: I mean don’t draw lines that seperate projects
[2007/10/06 16:02] Toze Barbosa: I have a SIM with some business goals
[2007/10/06 16:03] Toze Barbosa: but I do care about music and streaming there

[2007/10/06 16:03] Toze Barbosa: and see music and streaming as added-value to my customers
[2007/10/06 16:03] Toze Barbosa: it’s not tourism but the same concerns you have, i have also
[2007/10/06 16:03] Da5id Zsigmond: would anyone go to a movie without sound these days?
[2007/10/06 16:03] Toze Barbosa: and i could benefit from the same upgrades you would
[2007/10/06 16:04] Dizzy Banjo: sure toze.. i think the incorporation of soundtracks on land streams may have different requirements for parceling .. than say the ideal shapes for rental parcels
[2007/10/06 16:04] Leslee McCarey: Toze & Dizzy – you’re both giving me ideas!
[2007/10/06 16:04] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 16:05] Dizzy Banjo: well soundtracks are my primary interest here really.. along with immersive environmental soundscapes
[2007/10/06 16:05] Da5id Zsigmond: Soundtracks for me are another face of the basic issues
[2007/10/06 16:05] Dizzy Banjo: they are technically yes
[2007/10/06 16:05] Dizzy Banjo: but experientially its quite different
[2007/10/06 16:05] Prospero Linden needs to head out.
[2007/10/06 16:05] Da5id Zsigmond: still its what data to play when.
[2007/10/06 16:05] Prospero Linden: Take care, everybody.
[2007/10/06 16:05] Dizzy Banjo: thanks for coming prospero
[2007/10/06 16:05] Kaiser Bogomil: k Prospero – adios
[2007/10/06 16:05] Da5id Zsigmond: take care
[2007/10/06 16:05] Dizzy Banjo:
[2007/10/06 16:06] Toze Barbosa: nice to meey you
[2007/10/06 16:06] Dizzy Banjo: yeh in terms of the experience its intersting.. as many areas will just not want a soundtrack at all
[2007/10/06 16:06] Dizzy Banjo: but some areas could really be transformed by it
[2007/10/06 16:06] BlueWall Slade: g’bye prospero
[2007/10/06 16:06] Dizzy Banjo: in some ways its similar to the use of music on websites
[2007/10/06 16:07] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – some games work well that way
[2007/10/06 16:07] Dizzy Banjo: some websites just dont want it at all
[2007/10/06 16:07] Dizzy Banjo: well yes
[2007/10/06 16:07] Kaiser Bogomil: yep
[2007/10/06 16:07] Leslee McCarey: just like movies have music in parts but not all
[2007/10/06 16:07] Toze Barbosa: but these games and websites are for single users
[2007/10/06 16:07] Kaiser Bogomil: yep
[2007/10/06 16:07] Toze Barbosa: what we have here is the problem of synchronicity
[2007/10/06 16:08] Kaiser Bogomil: but still – when you look at ppl density for a sim…
[2007/10/06 16:08] Dizzy Banjo: in general.. video games industry is so far ahead of virtual worlds ( primarily due to architecture – but also due to content ) in terms of use of soundtracks
[2007/10/06 16:08] Da5id Zsigmond: yes. Whats the reference.
[2007/10/06 16:08] Kaiser Bogomil: its almost like there is only one person at a time anyway
[2007/10/06 16:08] Toze Barbosa: that’s what SL brings in terms of colaborative design and architecture
[2007/10/06 16:08] Toze Barbosa: and social networking
[2007/10/06 16:08] Da5id Zsigmond: In most games its all client side so its fast.
[2007/10/06 16:08] Toze Barbosa: I suredo dream that it could do the same with music
[2007/10/06 16:09] Toze Barbosa: and sync’ed midi seems to me as a really viable solution
[2007/10/06 16:09] Dizzy Banjo: yeah
[2007/10/06 16:09] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – hmmmmm – there’s a thought though – do it client side with something like DirectMusic?
[2007/10/06 16:09] Da5id Zsigmond: For music it would be great.
[2007/10/06 16:09] Dizzy Banjo: its fascinating.. im gonna try to get zero along to one of these specifically on the 10s audio stuff.. and the MIDI thing
[2007/10/06 16:10] Toze Barbosa: hey guys wanna jam with some bongos? they are sync’ed you should see it… i mean hear it!!!
[2007/10/06 16:10] Dizzy Banjo: he had alot of interesting suggestions about it.. but i think he is so weighed down in the grid architecture debate atm
[2007/10/06 16:10] BlueWall Slade: Dizzy: we also need a *music app only* XML-RCP channel, if it will be used for MIDI in any way.
[2007/10/06 16:10] Dizzy Banjo: i was playing some of those over at Svarga the other day
[2007/10/06 16:10] Kaiser Bogomil: Toze – can you send the lm via our group?
[2007/10/06 16:11] Toze Barbosa: i’ll have to head there first
[2007/10/06 16:11] Kaiser Bogomil: k – I have to head out now …
[2007/10/06 16:11] Toze Barbosa: because they’re in a basement garden… and i don’t have the correct landmark for thate
[2007/10/06 16:11] Jazz Glineux: ha, toze, seems music is really all about sync when u think about it, humans making up a sync to some internally-derived timebase
[2007/10/06 16:11] Toze Barbosa: is there a group here? i should join it!
[2007/10/06 16:11] Kaiser Bogomil: great discussion ppl!!
[2007/10/06 16:11] Kaiser Bogomil: see you all next time tc
[2007/10/06 16:11] Dizzy Banjo: yes the group is “metamusic”
[2007/10/06 16:12] Da5id Zsigmond: bye
[2007/10/06 16:12] Dizzy Banjo: thanks kaiser
[2007/10/06 16:12] Toze Barbosa: lol…nice name
[2007/10/06 16:12] BlueWall Slade: it’s like dancing to music – the synch issue
[2007/10/06 16:12] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 16:12] Dizzy Banjo: hi malburns
[2007/10/06 16:12] Malburns Writer: Hi Dizzy
[2007/10/06 16:12] Malburns Writer: Hi Leslee
[2007/10/06 16:12] Jazz Glineux: or lack of sync when dancing, which my wife always feels compelled to point out
[2007/10/06 16:12] Dizzy Banjo: so i suppose we are kind of wrapping up here really
[2007/10/06 16:12] Da5id Zsigmond: lol
[2007/10/06 16:12] Dizzy Banjo: it been a great discussion
[2007/10/06 16:13] Leslee McCarey: Hi Mal – looks like we’re wrapping up
[2007/10/06 16:13] Toze Barbosa: raelly great
[2007/10/06 16:13] Domchi Underwood: Lots of interesting ideas
[2007/10/06 16:13] Dizzy Banjo: thanks so much everyone for coming
[2007/10/06 16:13] Da5id Zsigmond: thanks Dizzy.
[2007/10/06 16:13] Jazz Glineux: thanks a lot Dizzy for getting the group together
[2007/10/06 16:13] Dizzy Banjo: once again join metamusic if you can
[2007/10/06 16:13] Jazz Glineux: interesting stuff
[2007/10/06 16:13] Toze Barbosa: there should be an effort done towards pushin LL into the sync’ed MIDI thing
[2007/10/06 16:13] Dizzy Banjo: and ill be posting stuff.. on my blog
[2007/10/06 16:13] Leslee McCarey: excellent session Dizzy!
[2007/10/06 16:13] Toze Barbosa: blog url?
[2007/10/06 16:13] Dizzy Banjo: i cover lots of stuff that relate to this on my blog
[2007/10/06 16:14] Malburns Writer: Look forward to write up i guess – lol
[2007/10/06 16:14] Da5id Zsigmond: I will also send out an invite to my place – I have this loop engine which does some interesting things.
[2007/10/06 16:14] Leslee McCarey: Toze – yes, that would be a real asset
[2007/10/06 16:14] Dizzy Banjo: http://dizzybanjo.wordpress.com
[2007/10/06 16:14] Dizzy Banjo: i thought maybe .. at some point we could have a session where we get people to bring over all their kit
[2007/10/06 16:14] Dizzy Banjo: and just throw out some cool installations from their inventory here
[2007/10/06 16:14] Leslee McCarey: *all*?!
[2007/10/06 16:15] Dizzy Banjo: and we could discuss them
[2007/10/06 16:15] Leslee McCarey: ahh, that kit
[2007/10/06 16:15] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 16:15] Dizzy Banjo: steady on leslee
[2007/10/06 16:15] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 16:15] Toze Barbosa: what kit?
[2007/10/06 16:15] Da5id Zsigmond gave you Zsigmond BirdSong Eggs and Nest.
[2007/10/06 16:15] Dizzy Banjo: oh whats this da5id
[2007/10/06 16:15] Jazz Glineux: i’ll leave my kit on
[2007/10/06 16:15] Da5id Zsigmond: just a little bird thing.
[2007/10/06 16:15] Leslee McCarey chuckles – you’re safe – my SL music kit is next to nonexistent at the moment
[2007/10/06 16:15] Da5id Zsigmond: from my balcony lol
[2007/10/06 16:16] Leslee McCarey: nice David!
[2007/10/06 16:16] Dizzy Banjo: lol that loaded pretty fast for me
[2007/10/06 16:16] Zsigmond Bird Song Ball: Touched.
[2007/10/06 16:16] Dizzy Banjo: patchouli was here earlier on and installed a huge windchime
[2007/10/06 16:16] Zsigmond Bird Song Ball: Touched.
[2007/10/06 16:16] Da5id Zsigmond: it would sure be lovely if there was some way to know when a sound started.
[2007/10/06 16:16] Zsigmond Bird Song Ball: Touched.
[2007/10/06 16:16] Dizzy Banjo: but we took it down cos i thought it would get too annoying
[2007/10/06 16:17] Toze Barbosa: again… who wants to try a jam?
[2007/10/06 16:17] Leslee McCarey: after a while, your bird stars sounding like squeaky wheels on a kid’s tricycle, Da5
[2007/10/06 16:17] Dizzy Banjo: yeh cool toze
[2007/10/06 16:17] Toze Barbosa: I’ve tried that jam with some non-music friends
[2007/10/06 16:17] Toze Barbosa: and it was quite fun
[2007/10/06 16:17] Leslee McCarey: sure, Toze
[2007/10/06 16:17] Dizzy Banjo: maybe we should all head over and jam out
[2007/10/06 16:17] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/10/06 16:17] Da5id Zsigmond: I must go now myself. – I know its not stochastic. lol. One sample.
[2007/10/06 16:17] Toze Barbosa: ok…i’ll post the landmark in the group
[2007/10/06 16:17] Toze Barbosa: 10 secs
[2007/10/06 16:17] Dizzy Banjo: btw .. ill post on my blog about the forum
[2007/10/06 16:18] Jazz Glineux: i’ve got a jam room with instruments thats hooked up to a shoutcast server and a ninjam streamer if anyone want to try it out, let me know
[2007/10/06 16:18] BlueWall Slade: cool conversation here – lots of great ideas
[2007/10/06 16:18] Dizzy Banjo: yeh that would be cool jazz
[2007/10/06 16:18] Domchi Underwood: Well… see you guys.
[2007/10/06 16:18] Dizzy Banjo: bye domchi
[2007/10/06 16:18] Leslee McCarey: cya Domchi
[2007/10/06 16:18] Colpa LeMay: Thanks Dizzy -
[2007/10/06 16:18] Dizzy Banjo:
[2007/10/06 16:19] Dizzy Banjo: where these drums then ?