Whilst last week’s discussion with the various Linden’s was great, it was also frenetic and difficult to follow. The various Lindens involved with music and audio development are very keen for the dialogue to continue so I had a chat with Aric about how we could break up the discussions into smaller topics which revolve around “what we want to do” instead of particular technologies.

This weeks more informal discussion was intended to work out what that structure could be and try to pull together what some of those aspirations are. The discussion ranged from some aspirational discussion to lots of technical discussion. This was all very interesting and useful, but its clear we are going to need to create specific discussions for purely discussing creative aspirations from audio developers and musicians, as well as specific discussions for how to implement those technically.

We also discussed how this process can interface into the work of the Architecture Working Group through a series of Viewpoint Advocacy Groups. As usual I will be posting the chatlogs to the Music Development list too.

[2007/11/17 12:11] Dizzy Banjo: basically last time.. when a range of musically interested Lindens came along.. i thought it would be good to open up the discussion to just let everyone communicate their desires really for the platform
[2007/11/17 12:11] Dizzy Banjo: however.. it became quite frenetic as the subject is so vast
[2007/11/17 12:12] Morgaine Dinova: Dizzy: transcipt URL pls
[2007/11/17 12:12] Dizzy Banjo: http://dizzybanjo.wordpress.com
[2007/11/17 12:12] Dizzy Banjo: they are all on here back through the previous discussions etc.
[2007/11/17 12:12] Dizzy Banjo: ill get the exact URLs in a bit
[2007/11/17 12:13] Unmasked Shepherd: i thought i would be already by now
[2007/11/17 12:13] Dizzy Banjo: the discussions so far have tried to cover the basics of the different ways of getting audio and media in world
[2007/11/17 12:13] Unmasked Shepherd: but i am still here for some reason
[2007/11/17 12:13] Saijanai Kuhn: do you have a chatlog we can put on the wiki in AW Groupies?
[2007/11/17 12:13] Dizzy Banjo: and what technologies are being developed to enhance those
[2007/11/17 12:13] Dizzy Banjo: yeah
[2007/11/17 12:13] Saijanai Kuhn: And have you established a VAG yet?
[2007/11/17 12:13] Dizzy Banjo: no
[2007/11/17 12:13] Dizzy Banjo: that needs to come out of this next phase i think
[2007/11/17 12:13] Tara5 Oh: hey Dizzy no Lindens on Saturdays he he
[2007/11/17 12:14] Morgaine Dinova: A Multimedia VAG woul;d be cool
[2007/11/17 12:14] Dizzy Banjo: after talking about it with aric.. it seemed to be the best strategy to reorientate the discussion around specific use case desires..
[2007/11/17 12:14] Dizzy Banjo: rather than technologies
[2007/11/17 12:14] Dizzy Banjo: so the discussion is more “free” and aspirational
[2007/11/17 12:15] Morgaine Dinova: Why? 1 technology can support a lot of use cases.
[2007/11/17 12:15] BlueWall Slade: OK, a quick/fast outside to in-work channel to implement things like dmx/midi show control for triggering synchronized events
[2007/11/17 12:15] Kaiser Bogomil: its ok Morgaine – its a top down approach & it works fine
[2007/11/17 12:15] Saijanai Kuhn: Aric is stuck thinking in terms of LL-only. WHich is his job description, I guess
[2007/11/17 12:15] Dizzy Banjo: yes but some things might involve combinations of different things
[2007/11/17 12:15] Tara5 Oh: sorry RL calls i will peddle back in few I hope! cyas
[2007/11/17 12:16] Kaiser Bogomil: cu Tara5
[2007/11/17 12:16] Unmasked Shepherd: ergh
[2007/11/17 12:16] Saijanai Kuhn: I see his point, yeah. WE need to lookat a larger picture
[2007/11/17 12:16] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – & that will dictate the technology
[2007/11/17 12:16] Morgaine Dinova: Kaiser: Use cases aren’t top down nor bottom up. They’re a mapping between domains.
[2007/11/17 12:16] Dizzy Banjo: i think its a good way of looking at it in other ways.. in that some things may not need specific LL intervention .. and may already be well supported by other companies stuff
[2007/11/17 12:16] AWM Mars: One thing I think ppls may forget at times is that the ‘mov’ format is a wrapper format, you can incorporate virtually any media within that
[2007/11/17 12:16] Kaiser Bogomil: semantics
[2007/11/17 12:17] Saijanai Kuhn: which leads to another point for us, Morgaine: cross communication btween modules. We’ve beeen very client-centric
[2007/11/17 12:17] Morgaine Dinova: Hardy
[2007/11/17 12:17] Malburns Writer: Hi Slim
[2007/11/17 12:17] Dizzy Banjo: yeh AWM.. but media streaming is one part of the discussion..
[2007/11/17 12:17] Kaiser Bogomil: hehe
[2007/11/17 12:17] Dizzy Banjo: for isntance .. the other day i was talking with Rob Seaver of Vivox
[2007/11/17 12:17] Slim Warrior: /Hi everyone
[2007/11/17 12:17] Court Goodman: hi sliim
[2007/11/17 12:18] Dirk Talamasca: Specifically I would like more control over tweaking audio if we are limited to what LL may be able to do currently. The inability to equalize audio, boost or diminish bass etc, spatial enhancements.. Seems like more than just a play button should be at hand. We shouldn’t have to open a second application to be able to enjoy a stream as we’d like.
[2007/11/17 12:18] Malburns Writer: Yes – woindered about that Dizzy
[2007/11/17 12:18] Malburns Writer: sounded extensible there
[2007/11/17 12:18] Dizzy Banjo: about how you could potentially think about moving to a situation where voice technology was used for audio other than voice.. through objects
[2007/11/17 12:18] Morgaine Dinova: Dirk: you made an interesting 1st point. You second point wasn’t justified by it though.
[2007/11/17 12:19] Dizzy Banjo: streaming hosted audio files instead of audio from speakers etc
[2007/11/17 12:19] Scooter Back: It would be nice to be able to pipe in surround sound, and specify a channel to an inworld speaker. DJ’s would love it, and a dance floor would take on a whole new level of interaction
[2007/11/17 12:19] Dizzy Banjo: yeah
[2007/11/17 12:19] Lillie Yifu: Yes, I’ve played with that
[2007/11/17 12:19] AWM Mars: you can already do that in a crude way, by linking your recording device (mic) to a player..
[2007/11/17 12:20] Dizzy Banjo: yeh
[2007/11/17 12:20] Morgaine Dinova: Scooter: I’d go further and say, just take the lid off what can be an input, what can be an output, and what processing can be done in the middle.
[2007/11/17 12:20] Court Goodman: we need more control over spatial sound, scripting, etc
[2007/11/17 12:20] Kaiser Bogomil: I’d rather not have crude ways
[2007/11/17 12:20] Rekka Berchot: hope you dont mind if I join in
[2007/11/17 12:20] Dizzy Banjo: please do Rekka
[2007/11/17 12:20] Scooter Back: then we’d need a new plug in for a virtual patch panel
[2007/11/17 12:20] Dirk Talamasca: Hi there Rekka
[2007/11/17 12:20] Slim Warrior: Hi Rekka
[2007/11/17 12:20] Scooter Back: like Jack for linux
[2007/11/17 12:20] AWM Mars: crude lleads to development
[2007/11/17 12:20] Morgaine Dinova: Yep
[2007/11/17 12:20] Lillie Yifu: You can do more than just hooking the recording device to a player.
[2007/11/17 12:21] Dizzy Banjo: ive had 6 avatars piping audio through them from a multitrack studio .. so they are synced.. for instance
[2007/11/17 12:21] Dizzy Banjo: if those wernt streams.. but files..
[2007/11/17 12:21] Morgaine Dinova: The current client already has a useful multi-channel mixer. It just needs the rest done “properly”.
[2007/11/17 12:21] AWM Mars: imagine several band members each using their own spactial positioning to simulate 3d sounds?
[2007/11/17 12:22] Kaiser Bogomil:
[2007/11/17 12:22] Saijanai Kuhn: Shameless plug time: http://wiki.secondlife.com/w/images/e/e5/Multi-Process_Client_Overview_0.svg
[2007/11/17 12:22] Dizzy Banjo: yeh.. it would be great to work with that stuff Morgaine
[2007/11/17 12:22] Morgaine Dinova: Hey, that’s the SVG file Sai, hehe
[2007/11/17 12:22] Saijanai Kuhn: you could have a specialized client for concerts using this kind of idea
[2007/11/17 12:23] Kaiser Bogomil: scaled vector graphics?
[2007/11/17 12:23] Scooter Back: spacialized instruments! Wow!
[2007/11/17 12:23] Dizzy Banjo: all i really want to try to do now is find what people want to discuss and develop and somehow coordinate a series of discussions to address them all
[2007/11/17 12:23] Scooter Back: spacialized virtual speakers would be cool as well
[2007/11/17 12:23] Morgaine Dinova: We do have the MIDI interface and DSP modules and TTS and audio player in there.
[2007/11/17 12:23] Dizzy Banjo: some of it is already well underway such as MIDI
[2007/11/17 12:23] Court Goodman: things im interested in are scripting and live performance enhancements
[2007/11/17 12:23] Dizzy Banjo: yeh
[2007/11/17 12:23] Saijanai Kuhn wants QuickTime MIDI, not just standard
[2007/11/17 12:23] Slim Warrior: wb Mal
[2007/11/17 12:23] Malburns Writer: tks
[2007/11/17 12:23] Saijanai Kuhn: 256 micro-tones per semi tone
[2007/11/17 12:24] Slim Warrior: I would like to see also better options for media url changing
[2007/11/17 12:24] Kaiser Bogomil: QuickTime midi is almost a stadard isn’t it?
[2007/11/17 12:24] Slim Warrior: having to paste in one at a time is a pain
[2007/11/17 12:24] Dirk Talamasca: I agree with that Slim.
[2007/11/17 12:24] Slim Warrior: it doesnt allow for easy switching of sound
[2007/11/17 12:24] Kaiser Bogomil: true
[2007/11/17 12:24] Scooter Back: Wow, virtual sound reinforcement engineer. VSRE
[2007/11/17 12:24] Malburns Writer: I was slaptop thing from pixel trix with database of Urls for quick shanging Slim
[2007/11/17 12:25] Dirk Talamasca: But of course you may be told to use a sdcripted radio instead
[2007/11/17 12:25] Lillie Yifu: actually what we really need is soemthing that other people need as well… the ability ot read and deal with arbitrary binary streams from the client
[2007/11/17 12:25] Kaiser Bogomil: so Slim you want to do midi in realtime
[2007/11/17 12:25] Lillie Yifu: without having to engage in specialized work arounds on the client side
[2007/11/17 12:25] BlueWall Slade: it would be nice to have vertical partitioning for the murls too
[2007/11/17 12:25] Saijanai Kuhn: Like I said, yoiu may need to go as far as defining a specialized client
[2007/11/17 12:26] Court Goodman: vertical partitioning would be fantastic
[2007/11/17 12:26] Slim Warrior: I dont use midi really,, not inworld
[2007/11/17 12:26] Kaiser Bogomil: sounds to me like everyone wants everything
[2007/11/17 12:26] Lillie Yifu: we could start a project to put some things in the client that are not there now, but should be
[2007/11/17 12:26] Scooter Back: wouldn’t have to do anything special on the client side, I would think. Humans have two ears. So the surround sound and spacialized audio would still be pumped in power to one chanel orthe other
[2007/11/17 12:26] Slim Warrior: but yes Dirk, i know the radios are set for that, but it woul dbe nice to see it set in the main media
[2007/11/17 12:26] Lillie Yifu: yes Kaiser and we wan’t it with no bugs
[2007/11/17 12:26] AWM Mars: what is really needed here is a ‘clean’ client.. I forecast that SL will become a pluggin to a statdard internet browser.. then things will develop very quickly.. as long as LL can maintain security
[2007/11/17 12:26] Lillie Yifu: yesterday
[2007/11/17 12:26] Kaiser Bogomil: LOL
[2007/11/17 12:26] Lillie Yifu: because that is when our clients want it.
[2007/11/17 12:26] Saijanai Kuhn: http://wiki.secondlife.com/w/images/e/e5/Multi-Process_Client_Overview_0.svg
[2007/11/17 12:26] Lillie Yifu: if not the day before yesterday
[2007/11/17 12:26] Saijanai Kuhn: clean client design. We’re wroking on it
[2007/11/17 12:27] Kaiser Bogomil: I can grok that
[2007/11/17 12:27] AWM Mars: yes, but not a SL bound client.. a pluggin
[2007/11/17 12:27] Morgaine Dinova: Scooter: a sub isn’t really pickedup with your ears
[2007/11/17 12:27] Lillie Yifu: is there ar plan for plug in archetecture to the sl client?
[2007/11/17 12:27] Saijanai Kuhn: Full details of design proposal: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Multi-Process_Client_VAG_–_draft
[2007/11/17 12:27] Dizzy Banjo: well personally my aims are simple.. i want long playback of audio in world through point sources very accurately controlled by scripting so that everyone hears the same thing at the same time..
[2007/11/17 12:28] Kaiser Bogomil: YES!!!
[2007/11/17 12:28] Scooter Back: Morgaine, then we all need the cool chairs to plug in. I saw one on Think Geek.
[2007/11/17 12:28] Morgaine Dinova: Dizzy: sounds doable
[2007/11/17 12:28] Dizzy Banjo: how ?
[2007/11/17 12:28] Dirk Talamasca: I like the convenience of that as well Slim.. Perhaps a dropdown menu that stores URLS.. Then again.. how will that be stored? Are we going to be taxing the database even further by storing such information?
[2007/11/17 12:28] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/11/17 12:28] AWM Mars: In much the same way that you can apply ‘Add ons’ to Firefox for example
[2007/11/17 12:28] Lillie Yifu: that is mre control that sl gives us with animations or movement
[2007/11/17 12:28] Kaiser Bogomil: & its been done – we just need to bring the technlogy into SL
[2007/11/17 12:29] Dizzy Banjo: HI incredible
[2007/11/17 12:29] Incredible Tomorrow: hello all
[2007/11/17 12:29] BlueWall Slade: hi
[2007/11/17 12:29] Incredible Tomorrow: mind if i sit in?
[2007/11/17 12:29] Slim Warrior: woudl it take up taht much space, to store urls/stream info?
[2007/11/17 12:29] Dirk Talamasca: Hello Incredible
[2007/11/17 12:29] Dizzy Banjo: please do
[2007/11/17 12:29] Lillie Yifu: does not need to be on the server side
[2007/11/17 12:29] Morgaine Dinova: Just extend the audio archiecture beyond a crappy 6-input mixer and one output. Allow for DSP sends, and multiple outputs, and scripts in-world just need to send controls for them. MIDI control is fine for that, doesn’t need low atency
[2007/11/17 12:29] Saijanai Kuhn: Its a matter of asking for that info. Right now, a single access point exists for all such info.
[2007/11/17 12:30] Malburns Writer: i have 89 urls on a single notecard
[2007/11/17 12:30] BlueWall Slade: what length of files diz?
[2007/11/17 12:30] Dizzy Banjo: well.. any Blue
[2007/11/17 12:30] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – with file sharing ala Napster we could get resonably good performance
[2007/11/17 12:30] Dizzy Banjo: or reasonable lengths
[2007/11/17 12:30] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/11/17 12:30] Lillie Yifu: you can fit thousands of URLs in aplayer
[2007/11/17 12:30] BlueWall Slade: ok, that rules out sf2, eh?
[2007/11/17 12:30] Kaiser Bogomil: millions
[2007/11/17 12:30] Kaiser Bogomil: billions
[2007/11/17 12:31] Scooter Back: yes DSP sends, then a virtual patch panel plug in!
[2007/11/17 12:31] Morgaine Dinova: SF2 doesn’t need to be INSIDE the client. Decouple.
[2007/11/17 12:31] Saijanai Kuhn: The issue isn’t really file length, but the bottleneck of requests
[2007/11/17 12:31] Kaiser Bogomil: I agree Morgaine
[2007/11/17 12:31] Dirk Talamasca: Right, Lillie.. Slim is wanting to forego the player approach though
[2007/11/17 12:31] Lillie Yifu: performance drops off afteryou start doing linked messages to more than one prim
[2007/11/17 12:31] Slim Warrior: Storage of pre loaded sounds etc I can see might put a load on the system..
[2007/11/17 12:31] Lillie Yifu: I agree with slim
[2007/11/17 12:31] AWM Mars: What do you think will happen if architecture like Web 2.0 hits SL?…. more exploits?
[2007/11/17 12:31] BlueWall Slade: and you have to consider the flow from source to client
[2007/11/17 12:31] Kaiser Bogomil: no doubt
[2007/11/17 12:31] Lillie Yifu: players are patches until someothing better is here. The question is what is better?
[2007/11/17 12:31] Court Goodman: sl is web 2.0
[2007/11/17 12:32] AWM Mars: it is, but contained..
[2007/11/17 12:32] Saijanai Kuhn: WEb 3.0
[2007/11/17 12:32] AWM Mars: streaming media is one flow of exploits and also the web tab..
[2007/11/17 12:32] Court Goodman: im sure its already exploieted and bombarded
[2007/11/17 12:32] Morgaine Dinova: Bah, skip a few, go straight to Web-9.3
[2007/11/17 12:32] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/11/17 12:32] Kaiser Bogomil: I know I am
[2007/11/17 12:33] Kaiser Bogomil: ok … anyone want to take a stab at what working groups we have?
[2007/11/17 12:33] Morgaine Dinova: No media VAGs at all atm.
[2007/11/17 12:33] Saijanai Kuhn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2
[2007/11/17 12:34] Saijanai Kuhn: The guy that suggesetd it was thinking about Skype, facebook, and the like, not virtual worlds
[2007/11/17 12:34] Saijanai Kuhn: We’re Web 3.0
[2007/11/17 12:34] Malburns Writer: We need to keep separate web-like “private” experience from SL shared cpontent model
[2007/11/17 12:34] Lillie Yifu: well if you count AOL as the web, maybe
[2007/11/17 12:35] Dizzy Banjo: anyway.. i think we are drifting here.. lol
[2007/11/17 12:35] Saijanai Kuhn: I think Tim Berners-Lee has a better understanding of the web than most here…
[2007/11/17 12:35] Morgaine Dinova: Web folks are badly conservative. We need to put our Visionary hats on. Forget tomorrow, think next week.
[2007/11/17 12:35] Dirk Talamasca: Me too Dizz
[2007/11/17 12:35] Malburns Writer: Yep Morgaine
[2007/11/17 12:35] Dirk Talamasca: Bring down the gavel
[2007/11/17 12:35] Scooter Back: I agree morg
[2007/11/17 12:35] Slim Warrior: lol dirk
[2007/11/17 12:35] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – I agree Morgain
[2007/11/17 12:36] Slim Warrior: brb
[2007/11/17 12:36] Kaiser Bogomil: otoh – how many wizzards does it take to see clearly the vision of a thousand ppl?
[2007/11/17 12:36] Lillie Yifu: Well Morgaine that’s nice to say, but some o fus have deliverables tomorrow and next week. So working through the steps to what is deliverable soon, what is deliverable next year and what is out in the distnace is all well and good, but that means talking about tomorrow as well as next week.
[2007/11/17 12:36] Morgaine Dinova: Think Windlight. And think near-instant media control. And think HDTV. This is just going to be mind blowing.
[2007/11/17 12:37] Dizzy Banjo: its interesting to hear this stuff.. about how various things could be achieved.. somehow i need to talk to you Saij and Morg about how to feed this into your “process”
[2007/11/17 12:37] Morgaine Dinova: Artists are going to have a field day.
[2007/11/17 12:37] Kaiser Bogomil: I’d rule out real time colaborations
[2007/11/17 12:37] Morgaine Dinova: Lillie: your business deliverables for tomorrow are of no interest to me.
[2007/11/17 12:37] Scooter Back: I think the hardest part of audio is finding the quickest compression with the least loss, allowing quicker playback
[2007/11/17 12:37] Lillie Yifu: It is very easy to get swept away in what is possible. But real artists ship, sayet a friend of mine — who really did work for the person who coined that phrase.
[2007/11/17 12:38] Court Goodman: as a scripter but not a programmer, i wonder how difficult is it to add a function that allows scriptable control ove things already present in the client, like control over sound rolloff, that wouldd override a client setting
[2007/11/17 12:38] Scooter Back: Once a format is determined, the rest is just assigning the instance to an object
[2007/11/17 12:38] Dizzy Banjo: in many ways.. the focus of this group.. is about the interface between say pure creatives .. and the people making these changes possible
[2007/11/17 12:38] Morgaine Dinova: Yep. I’m happy to create anything the artists want … the wilder the better.
[2007/11/17 12:38] Court Goodman: i’d also like to learn as much as i can under the hood, so as to not make any silly requests. haha
[2007/11/17 12:39] Kaiser Bogomil: well – having been through a few of these meetings – I’d say we have a tree in bad need of pruning
[2007/11/17 12:39] Dizzy Banjo: yes Lillie i think a clear path is required.. with a sort of achievable roadmap
[2007/11/17 12:39] Lillie Yifu: dizzy <— agreed
[2007/11/17 12:39] Dizzy Banjo: yeh Kaiser..
[2007/11/17 12:39] Saijanai Kuhn: Real time collaborations could be done, but won’t be a public collaboration though the resutlt might be a realtime public performance
[2007/11/17 12:40] Dizzy Banjo: the pruning process needs to be done in the organisation of what is discussed .. and how that feeds into the AWG etc
[2007/11/17 12:40] Saijanai Kuhn: for realtime collaboration, you need peer to peer communciations, which only works for a small group of clients at any time
[2007/11/17 12:40] Court Goodman: i hear rumors of a 2.0 mono framework quite a bit
[2007/11/17 12:40] Morgaine Dinova: Yep, that’s why we have VAGs … focus groups.
[2007/11/17 12:40] Dizzy Banjo: yeh
[2007/11/17 12:40] Kaiser Bogomil: Yes Saij – & you have to be near each other too
[2007/11/17 12:41] Saijanai Kuhn: so 5 or 10 musicians could be performing together, but the entire sim could hear their *output*
[2007/11/17 12:41] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – but that’s a performance – not a collboration
[2007/11/17 12:41] Morgaine Dinova: It’s a spectrum
[2007/11/17 12:41] Kaiser Bogomil: and if I were in that band – I’d quit
[2007/11/17 12:41] Saijanai Kuhn: not sure that “near” is important here. YOu could have guys around the world working on the same performance. THey just have to bypass the server
[2007/11/17 12:42] Lillie Yifu: there are midi jamming programs now
[2007/11/17 12:42] Saijanai Kuhn: and for realtime collaboration of something that is NOT a perforamnce, it would be even easier
[2007/11/17 12:42] Lillie Yifu: if we had direct midi in … (yes this horse looks pretty dead…but…)
[2007/11/17 12:42] Morgaine Dinova: Anyone who’s heard VLB here in SL knows that remote collaboration in HARD in music. If we can find ways of improving the feedback for artists, that would rock.
[2007/11/17 12:42] Kaiser Bogomil: yes I agree but… I’d rather stream that to a media server & keep it out of SL
[2007/11/17 12:42] Saijanai Kuhn: go back and look at that diagram. There’s no reason why another client cant be hooked to the first one in a sideways connection
[2007/11/17 12:43] Morgaine Dinova: VLB = 5 musicians spread across 3 continents, playing live
[2007/11/17 12:43] AWM Mars: for music in issolation.. you dont need SL’s client… so for the most part, much easier to control..
[2007/11/17 12:43] Kaiser Bogomil: it would be incredible!! – a feat of magic though
[2007/11/17 12:43] Malburns Writer: I saw performance by 4 remote musicians lasty week – worked well
[2007/11/17 12:43] Saijanai Kuhn: not really. Just thinking out side the box o fthe current client
[2007/11/17 12:44] Kaiser Bogomil: ok
[2007/11/17 12:44] AWM Mars: if you could get access to the spacial positioning, you could actually crack that egg
[2007/11/17 12:44] Dizzy Banjo: yes AWM
[2007/11/17 12:44] Morgaine Dinova: AWM: what’s your special interest in spatial positioning related to?
[2007/11/17 12:44] Kaiser Bogomil: or programatic delays – like an equalizer for each musician…
[2007/11/17 12:44] Dizzy Banjo: all teh collaborative stuff is being handled very well by other companies
[2007/11/17 12:44] Kaiser Bogomil: but you’d have to adjust it every millisecond
[2007/11/17 12:45] AWM Mars: well lol… its spacial positioning that makes the Silver Stream system work, in broad terms..
[2007/11/17 12:45] Saijanai Kuhn: Right now, everything for the client is handled by one sim server. Distributed servers will help a bit, but for true collaboration, you’d take teh spatial info from the server, and everything else from the clients directly
[2007/11/17 12:45] BlueWall Slade: Let’s say you have a band – in a studio in rl, piping the audio into a stream…
[2007/11/17 12:45] BlueWall Slade: you, as far as i can tell, cannot get the animations and effects (visual events) synchronized with the sound for a show at this point.
[2007/11/17 12:45] Kaiser Bogomil: ok here’s what I’m hearing – a special interest group for collaboration?
[2007/11/17 12:45] Morgaine Dinova: You don’t need to adjust spatial positioning every milisecond. You define “paths” for the soundfield to take in your DSP, and you only control the paths slowly, eg. changes in panning.
[2007/11/17 12:46] BlueWall Slade: what would it take to do that?
[2007/11/17 12:46] AWM Mars: if access was to be gained directly from LL… then ingame scripts to sense positioning would not be required, therefore gaining better stability
[2007/11/17 12:46] Saijanai Kuhn: a different kind of client, for a start…
[2007/11/17 12:46] Lillie Yifu: You can i t is just ugly and hard to get working
[2007/11/17 12:47] Kaiser Bogomil: well… I say those who want to takle the collaboration problems should for a group
[2007/11/17 12:47] Saijanai Kuhn: 2 groups. A parent group for general collaboration, and a sub-group for media colloabroation
[2007/11/17 12:47] Kaiser Bogomil: sure
[2007/11/17 12:47] Saijanai Kuhn: solve it right for the top group and the media group can concentrate on its special problems
[2007/11/17 12:47] Kaiser Bogomil: or the other way around
[2007/11/17 12:47] Morgaine Dinova: Anyone volunteering to start an Audio VAG? I’ve got too many running already to start another one.
[2007/11/17 12:48] Saijanai Kuhn: awww morg, whats up with that?
[2007/11/17 12:48] Dizzy Banjo: ok
[2007/11/17 12:48] AWM Mars: Is there Linden collaboration?
[2007/11/17 12:48] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: hahahaha
[2007/11/17 12:48] Dizzy Banjo: i will need your assistance in setting it up Morg
[2007/11/17 12:48] Court Goodman: i think some field trips would be fun too
[2007/11/17 12:48] Saijanai Kuhn: just don’t let her sign her name to it
[2007/11/17 12:48] Kaiser Bogomil: I’ll participate in a an audio group for streaming problems
[2007/11/17 12:49] AWM Mars: sok,, its all resolved now, the dynamic duo are here
[2007/11/17 12:49] Elliott Martynov:
[2007/11/17 12:49] Scooter Back: I’ve done a little streaming audio, and I am a “sound man”
[2007/11/17 12:49] Court Goodman: batman’s got some cool audio technologies
[2007/11/17 12:50] JoshuaStephen Schism: Yeah, well, I mean, trying to be modest…
[2007/11/17 12:50] Dizzy Banjo: personally i think its all about getting audio inworld through point sources successfully.. i think collaborative software will be developed quicker and better by other companies tbh
[2007/11/17 12:50] AWM Mars: I think its Mic positioning thats in question though
[2007/11/17 12:50] Saijanai Kuhn: do distitance collaboration tools in open source already exist?
[2007/11/17 12:50] Morgaine Dinova: Dizzy: it’s noddy to set up a VAG. You just add a line to the end of http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Multi-Process_Client_VAG_–_draft (the list of VAGs), then click on the red link and start editting. Just take a copy of an existing VAG is easiest, leave the section heading, delete the rest, and start adding text.
[2007/11/17 12:50] Dizzy Banjo: not open as far as i know
[2007/11/17 12:50] Morgaine Dinova: Eeeek
[2007/11/17 12:50] Dizzy Banjo: ok
[2007/11/17 12:51] Morgaine Dinova: That URL is wrong
[2007/11/17 12:51] Morgaine Dinova: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewpoint_Advocacy_Groups
[2007/11/17 12:51] Morgaine Dinova: That’s better
[2007/11/17 12:51] Kaiser Bogomil: & we can add the group as a child group to the media group?
[2007/11/17 12:51] dibbs Dovgal: I wish that I were here earlier: has there been any discussion about a MIDI gorup?
[2007/11/17 12:51] Morgaine Dinova: Kaiser: yes you can — and that’s a VERY good approach!
[2007/11/17 12:51] Saijanai Kuhn: and join aW Groupies so you can ask for help from other participants
[2007/11/17 12:52] Kaiser Bogomil:
[2007/11/17 12:52] Kaiser Bogomil: we have discussed a bit about midi
[2007/11/17 12:52] Morgaine Dinova: In other words, make a Multimedia VAG … and child Audio VAG, etc
[2007/11/17 12:52] Saijanai Kuhn: Zero’s a midi person
[2007/11/17 12:52] Kaiser Bogomil: absolutely
[2007/11/17 12:52] Kaiser Bogomil: and we could create a few stub groups too
[2007/11/17 12:52] dibbs Dovgal: I have significant background in that sort of implementation, and it seems a no brainer to be able to support such a low bandwidth type of applicaiton
[2007/11/17 12:53] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – you’re right dibbs
[2007/11/17 12:53] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, join AW Groupies …. because we don’t have enough lag yet. )))) (j/k)
[2007/11/17 12:53] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/11/17 12:53] Kaiser Bogomil: hehe
[2007/11/17 12:53] Saijanai Kuhn: anyone want an invite? Its invite-only cause the meeting place is on a privagt eIBM island
[2007/11/17 12:53] Saijanai Kuhn: private IBM island*
[2007/11/17 12:54] Scooter Back: The only thing I’ve done with midi is interfaced my light board with the computer and choreographed the lights to a video with drama on stage
[2007/11/17 12:54] Kaiser Bogomil: uh oh that might mean a commitment
[2007/11/17 12:54] Scooter Back: I’ve never been impressed with it’s music capability
[2007/11/17 12:54] dibbs Dovgal: That is becaseu ythe only thing you have done is control lights on a light board via a MIDI interface
[2007/11/17 12:54] dibbs Dovgal: lol
[2007/11/17 12:54] Scooter Back: true
[2007/11/17 12:55] Kaiser Bogomil: you can invite me – but I won’t have any freee time til after the first next year
[2007/11/17 12:55] dibbs Dovgal: You have to rememeber that it is not MID that is musical or non musical, it is the person that uses iot.
[2007/11/17 12:55] dibbs Dovgal: It is only a communication protocol.
[2007/11/17 12:55] Scooter Back: yes
[2007/11/17 12:55] Kaiser Bogomil: yep
[2007/11/17 12:55] Morgaine Dinova: Well, I have loads of MIDI gear, but I do nothing with it. Reason is, I’m a techie, not an artist. I just like all the MIDI lights )))
[2007/11/17 12:56] Kaiser Bogomil: I’ve implemented several lan protocols
[2007/11/17 12:56] dibbs Dovgal: The point is that , with a MIDI implementation, and appropriat sound font libraries,
[2007/11/17 12:56] Alanagh Recreant apologises for being late…missing it altogether probably
[2007/11/17 12:56] dibbs Dovgal: You can support a tremendous client side bandwidth of not only musical cues but also audio of any type.
[2007/11/17 12:56] Scooter Back: then I guess what I’m not impressed with is the way the artist uses the communication protocol. Perhaps I have not heard some high quality artist’s creation?
[2007/11/17 12:56] Dizzy Banjo: HI Alanagh
[2007/11/17 12:56] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/11/17 12:57] BlueWall Slade: with MIDI in-world, can we sequence things besides music with it?
[2007/11/17 12:57] Alanagh Recreant: /hi Dizzy
[2007/11/17 12:57] Lillie Yifu: Alanagh! Hello!
[2007/11/17 12:57] Kaiser Bogomil: well you can – but I wouldn’t use midi for that
[2007/11/17 12:57] Malburns Writer: Hi Alanagh
[2007/11/17 12:57] dibbs Dovgal: http://www.synful.com/Sounds/Synful_Plays_Beethoven_Quartet.mp3
[2007/11/17 12:57] dibbs Dovgal: Try that.
[2007/11/17 12:57] dibbs Dovgal: MIDI based with a synthesis front end
[2007/11/17 12:57] Alanagh Recreant: I have serious issues with streaming, I am so glad this group met… so sorry I missed so much
[2007/11/17 12:58] Dizzy Banjo: yeh ive used that dibbs.. its alot of work
[2007/11/17 12:58] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/11/17 12:58] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – streaming is the root of all music probs
[2007/11/17 12:58] Scooter Back: that’s midi!?
[2007/11/17 12:58] Morgaine Dinova: MIDI is very in keeping with Linden philosophy …. MIDI is to audio like prims are to meshes.
[2007/11/17 12:58] AWM Mars: streaming music is an issue?
[2007/11/17 12:58] Alanagh Recreant: and if you are clueless, like me
[2007/11/17 12:58] Slim Warrior: oops
[2007/11/17 12:58] Scooter Back: holy crap! A long way from the “elevator music” of 5 years ago
[2007/11/17 12:58] dibbs Dovgal: I disagree: as long as you have well developed sample sets of audio files, you can reproduce tremendous amounts of sound scape based material at much lower Realtime bandwidth than attempting to stream audio files.
[2007/11/17 12:58] Kaiser Bogomil: there ya go Morgaine!
[2007/11/17 12:58] BlueWall Slade: ok, but if i have tracks sequenced in RL, it’s so easy to add a show control track right there
[2007/11/17 12:58] Alanagh Recreant: / Lillie…. Malburns
[2007/11/17 12:59] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – but you’d want to layer stuff like that in a Rich Music Format
[2007/11/17 12:59] dibbs Dovgal: RMF is a possibility.
[2007/11/17 12:59] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/11/17 12:59] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah … for example, the better soundfont pianos are almost as good as dedicated piano synths …. certainly good enough for virtual worlds.
[2007/11/17 13:00] Elliott Martynov: of course
[2007/11/17 13:00] Kaiser Bogomil: yep
[2007/11/17 13:00] JoshuaStephen Schism: hmmm
[2007/11/17 13:00] dibbs Dovgal: However, at its core, RMF is a MIDI based application latyer.
[2007/11/17 13:00] Elliott Martynov: good point
[2007/11/17 13:00] Slim Warrior: I have no idea what that means
[2007/11/17 13:00] Kaiser Bogomil: RMF is a concept
[2007/11/17 13:00] Slim Warrior: does it mean we will get better sound?
[2007/11/17 13:00] JoshuaStephen Schism: That’s the ticket!
[2007/11/17 13:00] Dizzy Banjo: ok hang on a sec
[2007/11/17 13:01] dibbs Dovgal: I think th epoint is that insetead of downloading complete audio files, provide download of soundfont libraries, and then parse MIDI information to those solibraires.
[2007/11/17 13:01] Lillie Yifu: ummmm yes, my partner sells midi sound sampled cds of classical music and breaks even on it… so they are at least commercially salable.. even if tht does not neessarily mena much *cough britney spears* *cough*
[2007/11/17 13:01] BlueWall Slade: nice dibbs
[2007/11/17 13:01] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – RMF is a multilayer concept that hosts lots of musical/audio technologies
[2007/11/17 13:01] Elliott Martynov: i agree about the britney spears
[2007/11/17 13:01] Slim Warrior: ahh ok Kaiser
[2007/11/17 13:01] Slim Warrior: and we can use that in SL?
[2007/11/17 13:01] dibbs Dovgal: Most of Britney Spears is synchronized MIDI playback from Digital Performer Files.
[2007/11/17 13:02] dibbs Dovgal: Including her voice, the moving lights, pyrotechnic etc etc
[2007/11/17 13:02] Lillie Yifu: I know
[2007/11/17 13:02] Saijanai Kuhn: Garageband, in other words
[2007/11/17 13:02] Kaiser Bogomil: sure – but it has to be written
[2007/11/17 13:02] Lillie Yifu: I’ve been read the riot act chapter and verse from the musicians I work with.
[2007/11/17 13:02] Scooter Back: wait a sec… Batman can’t fly!
[2007/11/17 13:02] dibbs Dovgal: There are so many availabel open source sequescners and midi plkayback systems.
[2007/11/17 13:02] JoshuaStephen Schism shouts: I’M F-ING BATMAN!
[2007/11/17 13:02] Kaiser Bogomil: yeah – & humming birds never walk
[2007/11/17 13:02] Scooter Back: lol
[2007/11/17 13:02] Lillie Yifu: better would be to have an audio out stream capability and the ability to define where it goes
[2007/11/17 13:02] Morgaine Dinova: Talking about sound quality, this landstream may be 96Kbps on 44.1KHz, but it’s compressed to hell and back, Erk, really bad
[2007/11/17 13:03] Lillie Yifu: that way if quicktime is what people have, they hear quicktime midi
[2007/11/17 13:03] dibbs Dovgal: I think it makes sense to allow for ewither download of small standartd MIDI files, or to also provide individual MIDI events to stream to the client
[2007/11/17 13:03] Lillie Yifu: if kontackte is what they have, they get the sampled soudns they ahve there.
[2007/11/17 13:03] dibbs Dovgal: A think all computers have Genral MIDI libraries,
[2007/11/17 13:03] Kaiser Bogomil: and quicktime
[2007/11/17 13:03] dibbs Dovgal: So you woudl be able to play much stuff from default structures on teh client computer.
[2007/11/17 13:04] Scooter Back: in that case, midi makes sense, because you can just send a midi channel to any/all/none of the outputs in varing levels
[2007/11/17 13:04] Slim Warrior: being able to synchronize the sounds tho, isnt atht what Dizzy was saying?
[2007/11/17 13:04] Morgaine Dinova: MS’s GM doesn’t qualify as viable.
[2007/11/17 13:04] dibbs Dovgal: However, why not also allow download of audio smaple sets, that could then live resident on the client’s computer.
[2007/11/17 13:04] Lillie Yifu: yes there is a way to do that
[2007/11/17 13:04] Dizzy Banjo: ok.. well clearly.. there is alot of desire for a collaborative platform for music
[2007/11/17 13:04] dibbs Dovgal: Then reference these libraries from MDI playback streams.
[2007/11/17 13:04] Alanagh Recreant tries to keep up… makes rantic notes
[2007/11/17 13:04] Lillie Yifu: (synchronize sounds)
[2007/11/17 13:04] Dizzy Banjo: but and lots of ideas of how to do tht
[2007/11/17 13:05] dibbs Dovgal: The advantage of MIDI is how low badnwidth it is.
[2007/11/17 13:05] Scooter Back: with midi playback, then a singer can simply stream her audio on a diferent transport. But then timing becomes an issue
[2007/11/17 13:05] BlueWall Slade: it could also be used to create soundscapes in the environment
[2007/11/17 13:05] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – but it won’t solve the lag problems of the www
[2007/11/17 13:05] dibbs Dovgal: Obviously there are tremendous synchronization issues in SL, and I shudder to think of th emusical latency issues.
[2007/11/17 13:05] Lillie Yifu: (and that it is as ubiquitous as rice in Shanghai)
[2007/11/17 13:05] Dizzy Banjo: shall we move on from it now ?.. id liek to hear more about how people think we can deal with the more difficult problem of enabling more persistent in world audio
[2007/11/17 13:05] BlueWall Slade: witha default set of rural/city/space… sounds
[2007/11/17 13:05] dibbs Dovgal: Yes BlueWall, that is precisely why I think it can be important.
[2007/11/17 13:05] Scooter Back: oh ambiant sounds
[2007/11/17 13:05] Kaiser Bogomil: yes Dizzy – lets!
[2007/11/17 13:06] dibbs Dovgal: But also you can tie sounds to objecrts.
[2007/11/17 13:06] BlueWall Slade: yes
[2007/11/17 13:06] dibbs Dovgal: So you build an obkject: a bird for example.
[2007/11/17 13:06] Morgaine Dinova: Bah, ambient sound. That’s not #1 on the artist’s list.
[2007/11/17 13:06] dibbs Dovgal: You create a Soundfont library for that bird of its sounds.
[2007/11/17 13:06] dibbs Dovgal: Tweats twitters wibngflaps etc.
[2007/11/17 13:06] dibbs Dovgal: Then you send that to teh client along with the object information.
[2007/11/17 13:06] Dizzy Banjo: its a bigger concern though Morg
[2007/11/17 13:06] Scooter Back: yes, make regions feel more live
[2007/11/17 13:06] Dizzy Banjo: its fundamental to immersion
[2007/11/17 13:06] dibbs Dovgal: You then trigger these sounds from teh server side via MIDI events
[2007/11/17 13:06] Kaiser Bogomil: yes and for any missing font you have a generic substution
[2007/11/17 13:06] Scooter Back: although, with three kids under 6, I don’t mind the absence of noise
[2007/11/17 13:07] dibbs Dovgal: Yes.
[2007/11/17 13:07] AWM Mars: Aren’t you missing the other perspective of doing a lot of this oput of game, if not all?.. ppls can simply loging to an external server while playing ingame… and still gain the spacial perspectives, if they can get the api calls to the LL servers.. like voice chat does atm.. you don’t need to be ingame to hear music, unlike movies..
[2007/11/17 13:07] dibbs Dovgal: But why not download teh font in teh saem way you can download a texture?
[2007/11/17 13:07] Kaiser Bogomil: that’s right dibbs
[2007/11/17 13:07] Dizzy Banjo: yes that is an interesting trajectory AWM
[2007/11/17 13:07] Morgaine Dinova: Dizzy: it’s a concern, but not a huge concern. We all have < 200 ms latency to SL (unless you’re in China), which is overkill for ambient. Ambient is not the problem.
[2007/11/17 13:07] dibbs Dovgal: The issue with that AWM, is that it is the real time interactive experience that will not be able to benefit from that strategy
[2007/11/17 13:08] dibbs Dovgal: You need events tied to the internal physics of the system.
[2007/11/17 13:08] AWM Mars: all this works, if you exclude LL servers for storing and running systems, greater flexibility etc..
[2007/11/17 13:08] dibbs Dovgal: For example, I have a racing game, and I have vehicles runnin garound the track.
[2007/11/17 13:08] Slim Warrior: I cant see why LL couldnt provide Some server space
[2007/11/17 13:08] dibbs Dovgal: I want th etire squeels, engine revs, door slams car horns etc to interact with scripted or physical behavior
[2007/11/17 13:08] BlueWall Slade: but, the same system that could be used to play the ambient soiunds can also play your custom samples
[2007/11/17 13:09] AWM Mars: you seriously want to host something on LL servers?.. lol..
[2007/11/17 13:09] Kaiser Bogomil: yes with font overloading
[2007/11/17 13:09] dibbs Dovgal: HOwever, it makes more sense to store these samples on teh client side
[2007/11/17 13:09] BlueWall Slade: yes
[2007/11/17 13:09] Scooter Back: wow, would need to script not only physics, but chemistry
[2007/11/17 13:09] Malburns Writer: lol scooter
[2007/11/17 13:09] Scooter Back: the sound metal makes against metal, and the sound rubber makes against cement
[2007/11/17 13:09] Morgaine Dinova: Forget SL servers. The RT audio will come from low-latency dedicated providers
[2007/11/17 13:09] BlueWall Slade: that way, you send a note on signal, and BAM! it’s there already
[2007/11/17 13:09] dibbs Dovgal: Exactly
[2007/11/17 13:10] Kaiser Bogomil: yes Morgaine!
[2007/11/17 13:10] Dizzy Banjo: Morgaine : im not sure how latency is relevant in that discussion ( im not talkng about collaborative music now ) .. SL is largely a silent, poorly immersive environment in terms of persistent in world audio .. the improvement of it.. would have far reaching effects.. socially .. if you will we need the Windlight of in world audio
[2007/11/17 13:10] Scooter Back: then your created object would have to be specified as notonly the texture, but the virtual compound
[2007/11/17 13:10] AWM Mars: for music, I suggest speargheading getting the api calls to the spactial positioning.. no overhead to SL, as its simply going out.. no interaction required
[2007/11/17 13:10] Kaiser Bogomil: & for extra reliability they would have to interact like a storage area network
[2007/11/17 13:10] Court Goodman: ive been making art with a lot of user-controlled musical loops, utilizing the same script objects used for ambience. there is a lot o fpotential there
[2007/11/17 13:10] Scooter Back: so when a colision is detected, the chemistry of the two objects would make the relevant sound
[2007/11/17 13:10] dibbs Dovgal: I suggest there are two differetn problems for musical performance.
[2007/11/17 13:11] dibbs Dovgal: The first is prerecorded playback: that can benefit from a variety of already existin gsolutions.
[2007/11/17 13:11] AWM Mars: then you can have sensors to ‘deliver’ the sounds, in VR that is, as its only the positioning that makes the difference
[2007/11/17 13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: You are at 237773.0, 266728.7, 28.4 in Tivona located at (8.4.128.59:13005) Second Life Server 1.18.5.73200
[2007/11/17 13:11] Morgaine Dinova: Dizzy: latency is relevant to the discussion because a bird call coming 200 ms late is not the end of the world.
[2007/11/17 13:11] dibbs Dovgal: The other is the latency and jitter issues that are endemic not only to SL but to WWW as well.
[2007/11/17 13:11] Court Goodman: a beat loop coming in 200ms late sucks.
[2007/11/17 13:11] Kaiser Bogomil: and if it is late – you can have a default sound for it
[2007/11/17 13:11] Saijanai Kuhn: From help =>about second life
[2007/11/17 13:11] dibbs Dovgal: However, that is why you preload the actual samples themselves.
[2007/11/17 13:11] dibbs Dovgal: Then you are only triggering them,.
[2007/11/17 13:12] Morgaine Dinova: Court: correct. Whereas a bird call coming in 200ms late doesn’t matter. Ambient doesn’t need to be sync’d
[2007/11/17 13:12] Dizzy Banjo: yeh .. but the same 10s audio loop of a bird chirping over and over again driving people insane is !! lol .. yeh i dont care if its late
[2007/11/17 13:12] Court Goodman: the “bug” i have run into is doppler effects
[2007/11/17 13:12] Scooter Back: have an object at the track that on click plays all the sounds expected while racing?
[2007/11/17 13:12] dibbs Dovgal: Yes.,
[2007/11/17 13:12] dibbs Dovgal: And if you had say 20 differetn bird shirp samples.
[2007/11/17 13:12] Lillie Yifu: dizzy wants ambient to be synced because he is “painting” sound scapes if you will
[2007/11/17 13:12] Lillie Yifu: like Varese
[2007/11/17 13:12] Morgaine Dinova: Unless you’re making an orchestra of bird calls … in which case it’s no longer ambient.
[2007/11/17 13:12] dibbs Dovgal: And then ran a slightloy random iterativce MDI triggering system, where you were also able to pitch and localize the sound,
[2007/11/17 13:12] Court Goodman: if teh avatar moves, a rhythmic loop starts to double and flange. it would be nice to control that without asking teh user to edit their prefs
[2007/11/17 13:12] BlueWall Slade: also , they can be panned, faded, etc
[2007/11/17 13:13] Lillie Yifu: So yes timing is important to him because that is what he is working with as his artistic goal
[2007/11/17 13:13] dibbs Dovgal: Then you could create meaningful and convincing soundscapes that never repear exactly
[2007/11/17 13:13] Dizzy Banjo: im not necessarily concerned with syncing..
[2007/11/17 13:13] Dizzy Banjo: although it would be nice
[2007/11/17 13:13] Dizzy Banjo: i want to simply enable FAR more audio
[2007/11/17 13:13] Court Goodman: its not to do with sync
[2007/11/17 13:13] dibbs Dovgal: At teh moment it is impossibvle for musicians to collaborate in real time ove rth einternet withoput totally dedicated connection points at both ends.
[2007/11/17 13:13] Dizzy Banjo: and with greater control of playback
[2007/11/17 13:13] dibbs Dovgal: Or Internet II.
[2007/11/17 13:13] Court Goodman: its a after-effect of doppler, causes dstrange audio artifacts
[2007/11/17 13:13] Kaiser Bogomil: I am very concerned with sync’ing – but not as a collborative real time thing
[2007/11/17 13:13] Dizzy Banjo: ok..
[2007/11/17 13:14] Dizzy Banjo: can we move on from collaboration ?
[2007/11/17 13:14] dibbs Dovgal: SO I do not think that we will be seeing that type of activity in SL for awhile
[2007/11/17 13:14] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/11/17 13:14] Kaiser Bogomil: yes please!
[2007/11/17 13:14] Dizzy Banjo: its almost another subject entirely really
[2007/11/17 13:14] dibbs Dovgal: I agree.
[2007/11/17 13:14] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/11/17 13:14] Dizzy Banjo: ok.. so forget about syncing.. for now..
[2007/11/17 13:15] Lillie Yifu: AH yes I was asked to convey a request by someone who is not here, that might seem tangential
[2007/11/17 13:15] Morgaine Dinova: I think there might be a problem of definition here. Ambient sound in VWs is not a performance medium … it’s background, always. If you use the sounds of VW ambience for performance, great … but it’s no longer ambient sound.
[2007/11/17 13:15] Lillie Yifu: can we get the entire key stream in sl the way we get a few key strokes like page up and page down
[2007/11/17 13:15] Court Goodman: id love to learn what people are doing with the current client the SL Gods have so graced us with
[2007/11/17 13:16] dibbs Dovgal: HOwever, the control mecahnism can be used as either ambient, sound effect, diagetic or other types of sound compoenets.
[2007/11/17 13:16] Dizzy Banjo: what do you mean by ambient sound morgaine ?
[2007/11/17 13:16] dibbs Dovgal: It makes sense to preload as much of the high bandwidth stuff as possible, adn then send very small bandwidth control code to modify these on teh client side.
[2007/11/17 13:16] Dizzy Banjo: all 10s uploaded audio ?
[2007/11/17 13:17] Court Goodman: is the 10s upload limit due to server lead fears or legal fears or both
[2007/11/17 13:17] Morgaine Dinova: Dizzy: environmental effects. By definition they are never sync’d, Once you sync them, they’re performance elements and no longer ambient.
[2007/11/17 13:17] Court Goodman: *load
[2007/11/17 13:17] Neil Nielson: what is the meetimng for pls?
[2007/11/17 13:17] Dizzy Banjo: well thats one application of 10s audio.. many other people use it for different things
[2007/11/17 13:18] Scooter Back: well, I can’t stick around any longer. Have to feed the sharks, I mean kids
[2007/11/17 13:18] Scooter Back: have a good one guys
[2007/11/17 13:18] dibbs Dovgal: Take care Scooter
[2007/11/17 13:18] Court Goodman: take care scooter
[2007/11/17 13:18] BlueWall Slade: bye
[2007/11/17 13:18] Slim Warrior: Hi Neil
[2007/11/17 13:18] Morgaine Dinova: Scooter: say hi to the sharks, and I want my lasers back
[2007/11/17 13:18] Saijanai Kuhn: round here, we call them “rayguns”
[2007/11/17 13:19] Goldmund Gufler: hey…..
[2007/11/17 13:19] Goldmund Gufler: Halllooooo
[2007/11/17 13:19] Goldmund Gufler: Hey! Dizzy
[2007/11/17 13:19] Dizzy Banjo: essentially the system of using uploaded sound at the moment is very frustrating .. due to the 10s limit and how to link them together sucessfully for playback
[2007/11/17 13:19] Dizzy Banjo: hi goldmund
[2007/11/17 13:19] Morgaine Dinova: If enough people join the table, do we sit in each other’s laps?
[2007/11/17 13:19] Slim Warrior: hehe
[2007/11/17 13:19] Neil Nielson: LOL
[2007/11/17 13:19] dibbs Dovgal: smiles.
[2007/11/17 13:19] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/11/17 13:19] Dizzy Banjo: there
[2007/11/17 13:19] Dizzy Banjo:
[2007/11/17 13:19] Slim Warrior: oooh
[2007/11/17 13:20] Morgaine Dinova: Wow, impressive Dizzy
[2007/11/17 13:20] dibbs Dovgal: Now I cant reach my coffee.
[2007/11/17 13:20] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/11/17 13:20] Neil Nielson: yes very impresive
[2007/11/17 13:20] AWM Mars: now the wind is whistling up my trouser legs
[2007/11/17 13:20] Dizzy Banjo: im sure many many people would liek to be able to work more sucessefully with permanently in world uploaded sound
[2007/11/17 13:20] BlueWall Slade: at this ponit, the table shoulf morph into a campfire
[2007/11/17 13:21] dibbs Dovgal: Yes the present implementation of sound is tragic to say the least.
[2007/11/17 13:21] Court Goodman: yes such as instrument makers
[2007/11/17 13:21] Dizzy Banjo: does anyone have an ideas about how to make that easier ?
[2007/11/17 13:21] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/11/17 13:21] BlueWall Slade: diz: you’re talking about streaming objects?
[2007/11/17 13:21] AWM Mars: From my experience in SL.. keeping as much content and control off game, is very desirable
[2007/11/17 13:21] dibbs Dovgal: The problem is that there is noguarantee of synchronization between audio streams on teh client side.
[2007/11/17 13:21] BlueWall Slade: or object murls
[2007/11/17 13:21] Kaiser Bogomil: I agree
[2007/11/17 13:21] Dizzy Banjo: well objects with uploaded sound in them
[2007/11/17 13:21] Morgaine Dinova: Dizzy: reminds me of Grace McDunnough’s MUSIMMERSION events … she would transport her audience (sitting on cushions) through different montages per stage … really rocked.
[2007/11/17 13:22] Court Goodman: but some of us are forward-thinking content junkies
[2007/11/17 13:22] Morgaine Dinova: Artists++
[2007/11/17 13:22] Lillie Yifu: I’ve had seeral reqests to make my harpsichord a hyper instrment
[2007/11/17 13:22] Malburns Writer: Musimmersion was excellent idea
[2007/11/17 13:22] Dizzy Banjo: yeh they were great
[2007/11/17 13:22] Lillie Yifu: what stops me from doing that is that control from an avatar to game unless the agent has sl-lib or other patches
[2007/11/17 13:22] Lillie Yifu: is not worth it
[2007/11/17 13:23] Dizzy Banjo: is not worth what lillie ?
[2007/11/17 13:23] Morgaine Dinova: Anything that blows/extends the mind is worth doing
[2007/11/17 13:23] Lillie Yifu: making hte harpsichord a hyper instrument
[2007/11/17 13:23] Dizzy Banjo: musicimmerision was great.. but that was a visual thing.. with a standard audio stream really
[2007/11/17 13:23] Neil Nielson: complete side note, but if anyone needs another venue, pls drop me a line, yo are all more than welcome to use the stage or theatre in MediaCity
[2007/11/17 13:23] Goldmund Gufler: /is this your music Dizzy?
[2007/11/17 13:23] dibbs Dovgal: Laserium for SL
[2007/11/17 13:24] Dizzy Banjo: no its a radio stream goldmund
[2007/11/17 13:24] Morgaine Dinova: Dizzy: yep! Now we need the audio side to be equally impressing )
[2007/11/17 13:24] Lillie Yifu: for those who have not seen it a full prim keyboard and stringe instrument that talks text midi through rpc
[2007/11/17 13:24] Goldmund Gufler: /thought it might be you streaming…;-)
[2007/11/17 13:24] dibbs Dovgal: That is traditionally th eissue: most developers are visually based, and spend a lot of time on teh eye cnady.
[2007/11/17 13:24] Malburns Writer: Hi 57
[2007/11/17 13:24] dibbs Dovgal: HJow many LSL calls are there for visual things?
[2007/11/17 13:24] Slim Warrior: hey 57
[2007/11/17 13:24] dibbs Dovgal: And then comare that to the aausdio imnplementatiopn
[2007/11/17 13:25] 57 Miles: hi everyone
[2007/11/17 13:25] AWM Mars: Hi
[2007/11/17 13:25] Ana Hulka: hi
[2007/11/17 13:25] Morgaine Dinova: Lo 56
[2007/11/17 13:25] Lillie Yifu waves her eye candy at dibbs
[2007/11/17 13:25] Morgaine Dinova: Oops, +1
[2007/11/17 13:25] Court Goodman: audio was initially done for ambient, but aric seemed interested in hearing input from anyone who wants to take it further
[2007/11/17 13:25] Dizzy Banjo: i tried to get that out of Meta Linden once dibbs
[2007/11/17 13:25] dibbs Dovgal: smiles
[2007/11/17 13:25] Morgaine Dinova: Aric is the QA guy, no?
[2007/11/17 13:25] Court Goodman: dont know his role
[2007/11/17 13:25] Lillie Yifu: hello 57!
[2007/11/17 13:26] 57 Miles: hi lillie
[2007/11/17 13:26] Dirk Talamasca: hi there Nick
[2007/11/17 13:26] Dizzy Banjo: Aric was involved in a number of collaborative online music projects before LL
[2007/11/17 13:26] Kaiser Bogomil: Just for the record… this is what I’d like to do in SL….
[2007/11/17 13:26] Kaiser Bogomil: http://animusic.com/dvd-info-clips-1.html
[2007/11/17 13:26] Saijanai Kuhn: those are so wonderful
[2007/11/17 13:26] Slim Warrior: yes that very cool Kaiser
[2007/11/17 13:26] Slim Warrior: totally
[2007/11/17 13:27] AWM Mars: SL/LL have always seen themselves as developing beyond its core, and see the likes of There.com as their competition for the ‘masses’ who have little more interest in VR other than shopping and chatting..
[2007/11/17 13:27] Kaiser Bogomil: its possible – but SL needs some work
[2007/11/17 13:27] Morgaine Dinova: Looks pretty. What is it kaiser?
[2007/11/17 13:27] dibbs Dovgal: Very much then you want to think of some sort of event based musical playback system that can be tied into visual events.
[2007/11/17 13:27] Kaiser Bogomil: Hyper music box
[2007/11/17 13:27] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/11/17 13:27] Morgaine Dinova: In-world Reason?
[2007/11/17 13:28] dibbs Dovgal: Vaguely
[2007/11/17 13:28] Court Goodman: at least an inworld garage band
[2007/11/17 13:28] Kaiser Bogomil: same thing as always – it would be fun/cool
[2007/11/17 13:28] BlueWall Slade: MIDI
[2007/11/17 13:28] Saijanai Kuhn: http://animusic.com/popups/clip-future-wm.html
[2007/11/17 13:28] Ana Hulka: sweet
[2007/11/17 13:28] Morgaine Dinova: I want fun/cool
[2007/11/17 13:28] Malburns Writer: darn – stand or sit – cant win
[2007/11/17 13:28] Slim Warrior: or ejamming which was based on midi
[2007/11/17 13:28] dibbs Dovgal: You need to stay away from thinking abou the audio generation coming from teh server side however.
[2007/11/17 13:28] Kaiser Bogomil: it would have to be midi based
[2007/11/17 13:28] dibbs Dovgal: Particulary iof you are interested in locational, velocity, and other types of spatial interaction with teh audio field.
[2007/11/17 13:29] Morgaine Dinova: dibbs: definitely. VW’s only supply the controls
[2007/11/17 13:29] Kaiser Bogomil: yep
[2007/11/17 13:29] Malburns Writer: Kaiser – I use those clips for my web show intros – great examples
[2007/11/17 13:29] Kaiser Bogomil: hehe – yep
[2007/11/17 13:29] Lillie Yifu: better still QT Midi based
[2007/11/17 13:29] Slim Warrior: so, pre uploaded sounds that can be streamed via a prim and synchronized inworld?
[2007/11/17 13:29] AWM Mars: I’ll BRB.. no fondling the Avie while I’m gone
[2007/11/17 13:29] AWM Mars: sec,
[2007/11/17 13:29] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/11/17 13:29] AWM Mars: opps, wronmg guesture lol..
[2007/11/17 13:29] Loki Clifton: sorry for being late
[2007/11/17 13:29] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – kind of
[2007/11/17 13:29] Loki Clifton: not feeling well
[2007/11/17 13:30] Morgaine Dinova: AWM: it’s ok, we only fondle servers
[2007/11/17 13:30] Morgaine Dinova: On Saturdays anyway
[2007/11/17 13:30] dibbs Dovgal: Or serve fondlers.
[2007/11/17 13:30] Alanagh Recreant LOVES this meeting set-up and company…but gotta go…
[2007/11/17 13:30] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Alanagh
[2007/11/17 13:31] Dizzy Banjo: personally.. i think midi is interesting..
[2007/11/17 13:31] Lillie Yifu: bye alanagh
[2007/11/17 13:31] Malburns Writer: c u Alanagh
[2007/11/17 13:31] Alanagh Recreant: ingenius chair Dizzy!
[2007/11/17 13:31] Dizzy Banjo: and all teh client side stuff is too
[2007/11/17 13:31] Alanagh Recreant: pls solve the grids sound problems peeps!
[2007/11/17 13:31] Alanagh Recreant: hehehe
[2007/11/17 13:31] Alanagh Recreant: then we can go boldly into the unknown metafuture
[2007/11/17 13:32] Slim Warrior: or to a pub
[2007/11/17 13:32] Dizzy Banjo: but in the longer term.. we need to find a way of enabling a streaming audio virtual world.. as well as a visual one.. in some kind of scalable way
[2007/11/17 13:32] Alanagh Recreant: haha
[2007/11/17 13:32] Lillie Yifu: Oh yes I’d like to ask a question that may have been answered at the last meeting but I was not here… what is the future of the parcel media coomand list cll in LSL
[2007/11/17 13:32] Morgaine Dinova: We can’t solve teh grid’s problems, on account of LL not being interested in solutions. Haven’t figured out why yet.
[2007/11/17 13:32] Kaiser Bogomil: yes Dizzy – that’s what I was proposing … a base archtecture that is extendable
[2007/11/17 13:32] Slim Warrior: how much is implementable now?
[2007/11/17 13:32] Dirk Talamasca: I think inworld reasoning is engagement. Working on things that are going to interest audiences is paramount. Bells and whistles ultimately enhance that experience but what is the one major change that will encourage residents to attend performances? If there is no audience, there is little point in proceeding. Artists will simply go where they are able to reach more of an audience.
[2007/11/17 13:33] Dizzy Banjo: im not sure if it is LL that does it
[2007/11/17 13:33] Kaiser Bogomil: It is possible that QT already has most of what is needed…
[2007/11/17 13:33] Alanagh Recreant hangs around for this point, considering signing up as spy with LL
[2007/11/17 13:33] Morgaine Dinova: Dizzy: yeah. It might be 3rd parties that pick up the AWG designs
[2007/11/17 13:34] Kaiser Bogomil: it has layers, is expandable, & has a network protocol for streaming
[2007/11/17 13:34] Dizzy Banjo: or someone like vivox.. changing their focus from streaming voice comms.. to streaming audio environments
[2007/11/17 13:34] Morgaine Dinova: Vivox sucks. Unless they go open source.
[2007/11/17 13:34] BlueWall Slade: lol: i guess Linux is out ?
[2007/11/17 13:34] dibbs Dovgal: What QT is lacking is the interactive component
[2007/11/17 13:34] Dizzy Banjo: lol well id hope that would happen too
[2007/11/17 13:35] BlueWall Slade: just put libraries in the client to interact with the midi
[2007/11/17 13:35] Kaiser Bogomil: I dono – I’ve hear they’ve done some good stuff with their streaming – but I need to look into it
[2007/11/17 13:35] dibbs Dovgal: Exactly
[2007/11/17 13:35] Kaiser Bogomil: to do what I want….
[2007/11/17 13:35] dibbs Dovgal: And then allow additioanl libraries to be preloaded from teh server side.
[2007/11/17 13:36] Kaiser Bogomil: I do need good PCM data
[2007/11/17 13:36] Dirk Talamasca: Why not contact them and see if they will send a representative in to discuss it?
[2007/11/17 13:36] Kaiser Bogomil: YES Dirk!
[2007/11/17 13:36] Slim Warrior: good idea
[2007/11/17 13:36] Dizzy Banjo: ok well one thing that is coming out of this.. is we need a clear distinction in discussions between 1. live music and collaboration and 2. persistent inworld sound and the audio metaverse
[2007/11/17 13:36] Slim Warrior: yes agreed Dizzy
[2007/11/17 13:36] Morgaine Dinova: Yep Dizzy
[2007/11/17 13:36] Lillie Yifu: hmmmmm
[2007/11/17 13:36] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/11/17 13:36] dibbs Dovgal: I say that 1) is going to be a problem much longer than 2)
[2007/11/17 13:37] Kaiser Bogomil: & we need to split up into our groups of interest
[2007/11/17 13:37] Slim Warrior: in what way?
[2007/11/17 13:37] Morgaine Dinova: The requirements are different enough that the distinction is important
[2007/11/17 13:37] Lillie Yifu: I’m going to suggest that there is a third group
[2007/11/17 13:37] Dizzy Banjo: im already talking to Rob Seaver about it .. soem of the technical staff at vivox are also following these discussions in transcripts
[2007/11/17 13:37] 57 Miles: Dizzy, what is the topic *supposed* to be here?
[2007/11/17 13:37] Lillie Yifu: and peple from the firs two are going to want to be in it
[2007/11/17 13:37] AWM Mars: back, but now I muct leave… techie things to do…. great meeting.. look forward to involvement
[2007/11/17 13:37] dibbs Dovgal: Becaseu 1) requires latencies in teh appx 7 ms range.
[2007/11/17 13:37] Lillie Yifu: 3) control streams
[2007/11/17 13:37] dibbs Dovgal: or better of course.
[2007/11/17 13:37] Dizzy Banjo: thanks for coming AWM
[2007/11/17 13:38] AWM Mars: :¬) my pleasure
[2007/11/17 13:38] dibbs Dovgal: Take care AWM.
[2007/11/17 13:38] Dirk Talamasca: take care AWM
[2007/11/17 13:38] Kaiser Bogomil: cu AWM
[2007/11/17 13:38] Lillie Yifu: bye AWM
[2007/11/17 13:38] Kaiser Bogomil: anyone know anthing about SMPTE?
[2007/11/17 13:38] Dizzy Banjo: this was the initial subject : Metamusic is discussion group centered around developing the capability of Second Life to deliver immersive audio / musical environments. In some cases we also discuss its development as a platform for collaborative musical creativity. Whilst last week’s discussion with the various Linden’s was great, it was also frenetic and difficult to follow. The various Lindens involved with music and audio development are very keen for the dialogue to continue so I had a chat with Aric about how we could break up the discussions into smaller topics which revolve around “what we want to do” instead of particular technologies. This weeks more informal discussion will be about what that structure could be. I’m also going to try to pull in desired use cases from across the wiki, music dev list and jira. Then we can set up a scheduled series of events which address all those issues and hopefully create development incentives.
[2007/11/17 13:38] Malburns Writer: Hi Incredible
[2007/11/17 13:39] dibbs Dovgal: Yes, I can talk SMPTE
[2007/11/17 13:39] Kaiser Bogomil: could that work for sync issuses?
[2007/11/17 13:39] dibbs Dovgal: NOt a viable solution for anything that ins unpredictable tin event order or time rate.
[2007/11/17 13:39] Morgaine Dinova: Lillie is right about the importance of control streams, or controls in general. However, it’s a cross-cutting issue — those apply to performance audio and ambient and voice and all the others alike. Control is a general requirement.
[2007/11/17 13:39] Kaiser Bogomil: ok
[2007/11/17 13:39] Daruma Picnic gave you Invitation to Amy Freelunch Reception.
[2007/11/17 13:40] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – I agree
[2007/11/17 13:40] dibbs Dovgal: I agree that we need to divide the sound into audio compoenents and control compoenmets.
[2007/11/17 13:40] Lillie Yifu: that is why I suggest that it is a third group that will draw some peple from the first two groups
[2007/11/17 13:40] Kaiser Bogomil: but!!!!
[2007/11/17 13:40] dibbs Dovgal: And that these are equally important in both live performace ans well as in enviroonmental and interactive sound.
[2007/11/17 13:40] Morgaine Dinova: Eg., *all* types require volume controls. Most of them require soundfield controls.
[2007/11/17 13:40] Kaiser Bogomil: we still need some granularity of “LOCK” between the two streams
[2007/11/17 13:40] Dirk Talamasca: We got way off the “What we want to do part” when we started discussing why we could or could not do those things. That should be a separate discussion. I think what we need right now is a want list that has good rational reasoning behind why those wants are beneficial to all rather than just a personal desire.
[2007/11/17 13:40] dibbs Dovgal: ALL types require at least a start and stop control.
[2007/11/17 13:41] Kaiser Bogomil: yes
[2007/11/17 13:41] dibbs Dovgal: This is what I would like:
[2007/11/17 13:41] BlueWall Slade: dibbs: and if we can provide any reasonable visual/audio sync in the process
[2007/11/17 13:41] Slim Warrior: agreed Dirk
[2007/11/17 13:41] Dizzy Banjo: exactly Dirk
[2007/11/17 13:41] Kaiser Bogomil: keyword: “Reasonable”!!
[2007/11/17 13:41] dibbs Dovgal: The ability to control sounds from scripted objects in such as way as to have control over audio with as much precision as we see in visual cues.
[2007/11/17 13:41] BlueWall Slade: lol, yeah
[2007/11/17 13:42] Dizzy Banjo: although.. it is intereting to hear how these things could be acheived technically
[2007/11/17 13:42] Dizzy Banjo:
[2007/11/17 13:42] Kaiser Bogomil: but still there will be some loss
[2007/11/17 13:42] Lillie Yifu: “all progress relies on unreasonable people.” Paraphrase of GBS
[2007/11/17 13:42] dibbs Dovgal: Technically, it is important to point a direction to indicate whether it is possible.
[2007/11/17 13:42] Dizzy Banjo: these discussions tend to jump around between aspiration and technology .. dramatically
[2007/11/17 13:42] Kaiser Bogomil: lol Lillie
[2007/11/17 13:42] Morgaine Dinova: Well transport controls are nothing new. Are we saying then that apart from media streams, all we need are generic transport controls and all the usual wordclock etc?
[2007/11/17 13:42] Dizzy Banjo: so it would be good i think to have “purely” aspirational discussions
[2007/11/17 13:43] Kaiser Bogomil: sure
[2007/11/17 13:43] dibbs Dovgal: I mean , the 1) issue I think is goign to be problemaic for a liong time, becasue you need to have latencies in teh realm of 7-10 ms MAX in order to get a useful collaboration going.
[2007/11/17 13:43] Dizzy Banjo: with a discussion of reasoning why they are beneficial to the community as Dirk says
[2007/11/17 13:43] Dizzy Banjo: and then have some technical discussions about how to achieve those
[2007/11/17 13:43] Dizzy Banjo: does that seem reasonable ?
[2007/11/17 13:43] Kaiser Bogomil: yep – I agree Dizzy
[2007/11/17 13:43] Lillie Yifu: the ability to attach a stream to an object, and separate the channels and assign those to objects i ssomething that many people have asked for
[2007/11/17 13:43] dibbs Dovgal: I would like to be able to provide my own sound sets, and then to be able to control those sound sets from a low bandwifdth set of cobntrol codes that are built into teh LSL or whatever language.
[2007/11/17 13:43] Lillie Yifu: specifically club owners whowant the stereo components split btween virtual speakers
[2007/11/17 13:44] dibbs Dovgal: In order to do sterao, you need to be sample accurate.
[2007/11/17 13:44] Lillie Yifu: hmmmm
[2007/11/17 13:44] dibbs Dovgal: Otherwise you will get into somb filtering and other issues like nobody’s business.
[2007/11/17 13:44] Slim Warrior: it would also be be very cool to have that ability in Liver performance too
[2007/11/17 13:44] dibbs Dovgal: comb filtering*
[2007/11/17 13:44] Slim Warrior: oops Live
[2007/11/17 13:44] Slim Warrior: \ hehhee
[2007/11/17 13:44] Morgaine Dinova: Well, “beneficial” is easy to define in media …. it’s just got to be fun and cool )) The beancounters also add “profitable”, but that’s their myopia.
[2007/11/17 13:45] Lillie Yifu: what about having a sound disc cashe that is seperate from the general disc cache
[2007/11/17 13:45] Lillie Yifu: and sizeable to as much as 1GB
[2007/11/17 13:45] BlueWall Slade: i would like to see murls on objects – not tied to parcels
[2007/11/17 13:45] dibbs Dovgal: It is problematic for musicians rto play live if they are 40 feet apart from each other.
[2007/11/17 13:45] Lillie Yifu: it seems that many of the problms people are facing with in world audio come from the latency and load times
[2007/11/17 13:45] dibbs Dovgal: let alone the unpredictable behavior of internet latency
[2007/11/17 13:45] Slim Warrior: do you mean on voice dibbs?
[2007/11/17 13:45] Lillie Yifu: but a seperate disc caceh in preferences dedicated to sounds woud solve much of that
[2007/11/17 13:45] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, latency is a pain.
[2007/11/17 13:45] dibbs Dovgal: I am talkign about any live audio sent from point a to point b
[2007/11/17 13:46] dibbs Dovgal: IN RL, 40 ft is about 40 ms delay.
[2007/11/17 13:46] Lillie Yifu: you can put vurls on objects now
[2007/11/17 13:46] Lillie Yifu: though the object still needs to be able to use
[2007/11/17 13:46] dibbs Dovgal: That means that each musician is hearing the other’s music 40 ms later than when it was created.
[2007/11/17 13:46] Lillie Yifu: llParcelMediaCommandList
[2007/11/17 13:46] Slim Warrior: well I can j sing live with another musician 3000 miles away, and deal with eth elatencey before it hits sl
[2007/11/17 13:47] Kaiser Bogomil: but is it fun?
[2007/11/17 13:47] Lillie Yifu: for example you can have a sensor that sets an agents video stream and texture when he or she comes in range
[2007/11/17 13:47] Slim Warrior: thelatencey isnt going to change on that anywhere anytime soon
[2007/11/17 13:47] Slim Warrior: yes of course
[2007/11/17 13:47] dibbs Dovgal: Exactly.
[2007/11/17 13:47] Dizzy Banjo: ok folks
[2007/11/17 13:47] Morgaine Dinova: Dealing with latency > 50 ms or so is an acquired still, no easy. For many, it’s an undoable nightmare.
[2007/11/17 13:47] Dizzy Banjo: well i think weve kind of thrashed out some stuff here today..
[2007/11/17 13:48] Dizzy Banjo: and realised how we need to structure the discussions a bit ..
[2007/11/17 13:48] dibbs Dovgal: Could someone repost teh wiki address so that we can continue this development asynchronously?
[2007/11/17 13:48] Dizzy Banjo: i can set up those VAG’s..
[2007/11/17 13:49] Dizzy Banjo: the transcript of this.. and all the other transcripts will be here : http://dizzybanjo.wordpress.com and i can put it anywhere else necessary
[2007/11/17 13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: one technique that works is to give everyone your calling card. That way you can call a private IM sessoin anytime without the expense of a new group membership
[2007/11/17 13:49] Slim Warrior: it is a good idea to separate the discussion out, however it is still interesting to hear everyones ideas and thoughts too
[2007/11/17 13:49] Dizzy Banjo: yeah slim
[2007/11/17 13:49] Saijanai Kuhn: if you consider this part of the AW Groupies work, post it there too
[2007/11/17 13:50] Slim Warrior: although I admit to losing the plot when it gets too technical, the input is amazing
[2007/11/17 13:50] Morgaine Dinova: Dizzy: you need more specific URLs … unless you’re looking for page hits
[2007/11/17 13:50] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/11/17 13:50] Morgaine Dinova: Not really interested in reading whole blogs#
[2007/11/17 13:50] Dizzy Banjo: well its not there yet
[2007/11/17 13:50] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/11/17 13:51] BlueWall Slade: ok
[2007/11/17 13:51] Dizzy Banjo: well tbh almost all of it is related to this discussion.. but i will post the specific URL of course
[2007/11/17 13:51] Saijanai Kuhn: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#Chat_Logs
[2007/11/17 13:51] Slim Warrior: bringing peopel in at the beginning is great to build a more solid communitythat has an interest in all music/ sound implementation in Sl, and from there is can be adddressed in smallr groups
[2007/11/17 13:51] dibbs Dovgal: How about here? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewpoint_Advocacy_Groups
[2007/11/17 13:51] Dizzy Banjo: it all gets fed back into the music dev mailing list too
[2007/11/17 13:51] Dizzy Banjo: ok
[2007/11/17 13:52] Slim Warrior: as soon as I get teh Sl Music community forum properly made up then ill take the links too Dizzy and have them there too
[2007/11/17 13:52] Dizzy Banjo: cool
[2007/11/17 13:52] dibbs Dovgal: PLease let me know I would very interested in that one
[2007/11/17 13:52] Morgaine Dinova: Sai: ouch, nothing posted since 6th Nov We’ve had *tons* of meetings
[2007/11/17 13:52] Slim Warrior: the slmc is already up and running dibbs
[2007/11/17 13:52] Slim Warrior: \I just desperately need someone who can do phpbb
[2007/11/17 13:52] Dizzy Banjo: there is also a group “metamusic” for this .. incase any one need to join that.. of course its a group slot unfortunately
[2007/11/17 13:52] Kaiser Bogomil: well folks – time for this one to go home
[2007/11/17 13:52] Slim Warrior: <– is rubbish at all that
[2007/11/17 13:52] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/11/17 13:52] Malburns Writer: Thanks Dirk
[2007/11/17 13:53] Kaiser Bogomil: Im me slim – I do PHP
[2007/11/17 13:53] Morgaine Dinova: Jeez, not another BB. Make a wiki
[2007/11/17 13:53] dibbs Dovgal: Ok .
[2007/11/17 13:53] Dizzy Banjo: yeh i need to shoot too
[2007/11/17 13:53] Kaiser Bogomil: yes – wiki
[2007/11/17 13:53] Slim Warrior: http://slmc.myfastforum.org/
[2007/11/17 13:53] Dizzy Banjo: thanks so much everyone
[2007/11/17 13:53] Court Goodman: thanks everyone, was a brainfull
[2007/11/17 13:53] Kaiser Bogomil: anyway – cu all
[2007/11/17 13:53] Ana Hulka: Might as well have it in both places…:)
[2007/11/17 13:53] Court Goodman: thanks dizzy for hosting
[2007/11/17 13:54] Dizzy Banjo:
[2007/11/17 13:54] Slim Warrior: byee Kaiser
[2007/11/17 13:54] 57 Miles: gotta run everyone, good to see you all, thanks dizzy
[2007/11/17 13:54] dibbs Dovgal: Yes thanks Dizzy
[2007/11/17 13:54] Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Dizzy, good meeting
[2007/11/17 13:54] Ana Hulka: bye … ty
[2007/11/17 13:54] Dizzy Banjo: bye
[2007/11/17 13:54] Malburns Writer: Thanks Dizzy
[2007/11/17 13:54] Dizzy Banjo: thanks for coming mal
[2007/11/17 13:54] Morgaine Dinova: Despite our coffee getting spilled every time someone sits down or gets up
[2007/11/17 13:54] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2007/11/17 13:54] dibbs Dovgal: lol: we need antigravity cups.
[2007/11/17 13:55] Morgaine Dinova: Heheheh dibbs
[2007/11/17 13:55] Malburns Writer: While I am here I have question about multi-chennel streamsing
[2007/11/17 13:55] Dizzy Banjo: coffee split courtesy of Mystitable
[2007/11/17 13:55] Saijanai Kuhn: easy enough to make here
[2007/11/17 13:55] Dizzy Banjo: oh yeh
[2007/11/17 13:55] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[2007/11/17 13:55] Malburns Writer: Has there been performance by group of musicians where each musician embeds personal stream into their profile?
[2007/11/17 13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: so shameless plug time, if you have an interest in this whole thing from a birdseye view down to specifics like music and sound
[2007/11/17 13:56] Malburns Writer: would mean audience opening and minimising each profile, but …
[2007/11/17 13:56] Saijanai Kuhn: please consider joinging AW Groupies and help us design SL 2.0 and 3.0
[2007/11/17 13:56] Dizzy Banjo: interesting mal.. not sure how it would sync
[2007/11/17 13:56] dibbs Dovgal: It wouldnt.
[2007/11/17 13:56] Malburns Writer: if tht makes snse
[2007/11/17 13:56] Dizzy Banjo: if it didnt need to .. it could be interesting though
[2007/11/17 13:57] dibbs Dovgal: Yes if the musical style did not require it then it could be very interesting
[2007/11/17 13:57] Malburns Writer: synch may be same old problem, but wondered if method had been tried
[2007/11/17 13:57] Dizzy Banjo: nice one..
[2007/11/17 13:57] BlueWall Slade: lol, i use the stream loke an echoplex for practice sometimes
[2007/11/17 13:57] Slim Warrior: iits certainly interesting